Advice needed:

Parents Forum
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<p>Probably in the same boat as others here, but we're deciding between two schools. </p>

<p>Both schools fit my D nicely, but school A is more prestigious, will help her more in her long term goals, and costs 47K. We received no aid whatsoever! </p>

<p>School B is nice, fits my D ok, farther away, but will cost us 29K. My daughter is now deciding (leaning towards A because of the name and mostly, the name), but I'm so torn with pushing her in any direction. Can we afford A? Not easily, but we'll take the loans and pay them off. Any advice from parents who have been down this road?</p>

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<p>If school A fits her 'nicely' and school B only fits 'ok' why are you saying that the she's choosing the school just because of the name?</p>

3

<p>So there is a difference of $72k. Just figure out what it is you/she will be purchasing for the extra $72k, and what alternative educational uses could be made of the $72k in advancing her toward her long-term goals, and if school A then seems like a reasonable purchase based on what you are buying, take the deal.</p>

<p>Nice to have choices you can afford!</p>

4

<p>We faced these same hard decisions last year with our second D. The choices were near full price at a top 20, 2 other privates with rankings of 50-100 at about half to 2/3rds the cost of the top 20, and State U's - 1 with honors and full tuition. After considerable deliberation, we rejected the 2 mid ranked privates. One did not fit and the other we considered to be no better than the State U's. That still left us with a hard choice. The State U was pretty good and the full tuition very, very tempting. D1 had graduated from this school and did well.</p>

<p>A year later, we are still struggling with the top 20 tuition. We are getting by but it will be a long time before I can think of retirement. Every day I know we made the right decision. D2 is around other kids who are much smarter and more accomplished. She is focused, disciplined and working hard to rise to the challenges. She has great experiences and opportunities which far outshine the lesser schools. We often hear that it is best not to focus on the prestige factor. That may be true but often schools have earned that name recognition due to the quality of education.</p>

<p>Our decision may not fit your situation. You need to carefully consider the quality of the schools and the academic programs. Equally important, you need to consider the personality of your kid. We have seen our kid bored and goofing off. We also have seen her like she is now, very focused, self-disciplined and maybe even a little too competitive. I just don't think that would have happened at State U.</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
A year later, we are still struggling with the top 20 tuition. We are getting by but it will be a long time before I can think of retirement. Every day I know we made the right decision.

[/quote]

Ditto. I still worry about whether my son's school is really affordable for us, but I don't question that it was the perfect school for him. In the end, we give up luxuries, but we still get by. I do worry how we'll do it for the next kid, but seeing our son so happy is worth every loan we're taking out.</p>

6

<p>IMO, let her somehow bear some of the $18k/year additional cost, or allow her access to SOME of the additional $18k per year for travel, the summer off, etc. </p>

<p>The point is for her to experience an additional financial cost for attending the more expensive college, and/or an additional financial or other benefit of attending the less expensive one.</p>

<p>How much of a cost or benefit for her to share in is up to you.</p>

7

<p>A few thoughts...</p>

<p>If your D is thinking about grad school, esp. in fields that cost a ton of money (law, medicine, or Ph.D.s in areas that are traditionally not well-funded), really consider a less expensive option and using the money for grad school.</p>

<p>I do like the idea of having your D be responsible for some of the additional cost - three or four thousand a year is completely reasonable and will not be overly burdensome when she graduates. </p>

<p>Don't get too wrapped up in the name. Higher quality school is one thing - smarter, more motivated students; better faculty; more options. Is there a size difference? Has she attended open houses? Does she like the students at one school more? How accessible are the professors? </p>

<p>Again, if she's considering grad school, she should enquire into the placement rates at each school. A more "name" school can (sometimes) hurt, as the competition is stronger and it might be harder to maintain the good grades. Especially with law and med school, she'll be best off somewhere good where she can be at the top of her class, instead of the middle (or bottom) of her class elsewhere.</p>

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<p>We just went through this decision making process this week. S's #1choice is a private school that costs 44,000. He did receive a 10,000 merit scholarship, to bring the cost to 34000. His financial aid package offered nothing additional other than loans. We do not feel financially able to send him there. We did tell our son that the cost is way too much for us. He is opting and happy with his second choice school, an out of state public that will probably cost about 27,000 (price for next year has not been set yet, at least this is what the financial aid office told me). I feel that the difference is not even the 7,000*5years (his major will take 5)=35,000, but the increased tuition at the private school, with perhaps lousy aid that really scares me. I also am considering my younger son. I have seen some parents go into debt for child #1, and then there is little to nothing left for the younger siblings. I don't know if you have more than one child, but this is also something to consider, as well as your retirement fund. Some people will receive pensions, but our family will not. If we do not put something away for retirement years, we will have nothing to live from in our old age.</p>

9

<p>


And here is where I will be living the next 3 and 1/2 weeks, with my intent on med school and/or grad school daughter (md/phd a real possibility). It's not only the hard costs, it's this thing that Ariesathena is talking about. [edit : actually I'll be alternating for the next few weeks, living half the time here and half the time in FA Hell.]</p>

<p>I addressed it with D the day after her acceptance to Yale when she asked "Dad, will I be able to handle Yale academics and get into med school?" Yes, dear. You have been vetted. You have the skills and the intelligence to succeed at Yale. But you do have to recognize that you will be a star in a galaxy of stars at Yale. When med school app time rolls around and you are looking for rec's , you are in a different situation there as opposed to some other schools on your list. Like everywhere, you need to be sure that the professors at Yale can write effective rec's and they won't be able to do that if they don't know you and respect your work. It will be harder at Yale to shine that bit brighter than the other students and you need to recognize that in making your choice to attend.</p>

<p>I have discussed this with my educated friends and they all agree ( at least somewhat ) with Ariesathena and express the need for caution. All also agree that if Yale UG (or any number of schools) was D's only degree that it would be far preferable to attend Yale (or Harvard, or Princeton, or.....). And maybe even for a kid thinking about a MBA. </p>

<p>I'll be depending on my good friend cangel, whose Dartmouth bound pre-med daughter faced this same issue last cycle, to give me guidance on how to counsel my D (if Yale becomes economically feasible ). Sheesh.</p>

10

<p>IMO, this is simply untrue:</p>

<p>"Especially with law and med school, she'll be best off somewhere good where she can be at the top of her class, instead of the middle (or bottom) of her class elsewhere."</p>

<p>If this were true Yale, Stanford and Harvard Law and Harvard and JHU med would be filled with kids from mid tier colleges. They aren't. </p>

<p>Because of an EC that involves many different colleges, one of my kids had friends at a lot of different colleges of varying degrees of prestige. Believe me, at the end of 4 years, the ones who went to top schools AND DID WELL had better options than the ones who went to second tier schools AND DID WELL. The ones in the middle of the class at top schools have better options than the ones about 25% from the top at second tier schools. It's only when you are comparing the kids in the middle (and below) at the top schools with those at the very top of second tier that the advantage switches to the second tier. A lot of the kids who end up in the bottom half of an Ivy regret having gone to a top school because they ASSUME that had they gone to state U. they would have been valedictorian. Personally, I think that's nonsense, but they believe it. </p>

<p>I know that Yale--and this is certainly not unique to Yale--requires every major in most sciences to do supervised faculty research. So, even if your D is not a <em>star</em> at Yale, she will have at least one faculty member who knows her well enough to write a rec. Indeed, at least in the bio major, it's almost impossible to go through Yale without getting to know at least 2-3 profs well. You'd really have to try hard not to. </p>

<p>And, if your D is really sure about a MD/Ph.D., nobody pays for those anyway. One of my net pals from the days my own D was in high school has a D who went to Yale and is now in one of the top MD/Ph.D. programs in the nation--and it is absolutely free. I know that she wasn't the only female in her Yale class that got into both top programs. </p>

<p>And, you know, that your D may not end up wanting to go to med school at all. I know you and she both are certain that she will, but lots of kids who are certain that they were end up changing their minds.</p>

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<p>A word of caution about those MD/PhD programs - they are really, really, REALLY tough to get into. Take it from the father of D1, who's now in the first year of the MD/PhD program at Northwestern. This is a kid who had near-perfect SAT I and II scores, National Merit Scholar + winner of other merit scholarships at Dartmouth, good MCAT score - yet she was rejected by 50% of the MD/PhD programs she applied to.</p>

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<p>Most of the top privates are pretty generous with grading and supportive with their classes. (Big state U may be trying to whittle down their pre-med group by flunking out the low-liers; Yale is certainly not!) Your daughter will get lots of support in class and will do well. (Look at graduation rates from Yale. Look at med school placement rates.)</p>

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<p>Optimizer Dad - She just needs one acceptance!</p>

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<p>jonri, I knew about the md/phd programs being free but I am very glad to hear about the prospects in the bio program at Yale for meaningful contact with the prof's. That kind of info is what I need to bring to her. Thanks.</p>

<p>AAACKK. :eek: We are hijacking the thread. </p>

<p>Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.</p>

15

<p>After I respond to this one. Sorry, OP. I really am. </p>

<p>Yes anxiousmom, but when she was applying to Yale we stumbled upon a surprising statistic that the number of kids by % attending med school from Yale had fallen substantially over the last decade. (My feeble memory says by 50%). </p>

<p>I agreed with the article ( person? made for TV movie? T-shirt slogan? ) that the decline probably showed a lack of popularity of the medical profession among Yale undergrads rather than any difficulty Yale students had being accepted to med school. It is no longer an idle musing at my house. LOL. I will need to dig deeper.</p>

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<p>...because no one said that the decision was between (for example) Harvard and BU. HYS will all be fine, unless the kid is a slacker and won't do well. However, if you drop slightly below that - the schools ranked about 10-25 in USNews - I would be shocked if there were a substantial advantage to going to those schools and being in the middle of your class.</p>

<p>There are excellent schools that are not Harvard and Yale; there are "name" schools that are not Harvard and Yale. No one has said that the OP's D is considering Harvard v. some entirely mediocre state school. Not to knock any schools... but how do you know that the OP's D is deciding between Harvard and SUNY instead of, say, Brandeis and Rutgers?</p>

<p>There are 200 law schools in the US. Only three of them are Harvard, Yale, or Stanford. Likewise, there are three thousand colleges and only eight Ivies. Might make sense to give advice based on something besides the exceptions.</p>

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<p>i'm jumping in bcuz i have a point/question that i think encompasses this thread.... i know several kids who were accepted into a special math program in Europe this year... kids from all over the country who are at or near the top of their class in their major. what we are now seeing is that, in general, the kids from the elites are doing much better... people from my generation would surely expect this, but there seems to be lack of acknowlegement in current trends? please tell me i'm just imagining this... bcuz the buzz about grade inflation has just recently been hitting my radar... i dont really want to send my child a 5*school w/ applicable price tag so that he can sleep on a roll-away and take cold showers.... unless of course, he chooses to do so. to me, it's one thing to have higher standards & work hard; it's another to be punished & fined for it! this has to play in to the decision i should think!</p>

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<p>"Yes anxiousmom, but when she was applying to Yale we stumbled upon a surprising statistic that the number of kids by % attending med school from Yale had fallen substantially over the last decade. (My feeble memory says by 50%)."</p>

<p>Actually, it was 63% over 25 years. Doesn't mean the students at Yale got worse over that period. Just means that the differences in student bodies between Yale and the md candidates at other good schools got much smaller. (which is not surprising, given how many fabulous candidates Yale and other prestige schools reject every year.)</p>

<p>No matter how you slice it, 50% of Yale students graduate in the bottom half of their class. The med school admit rate is not the key number (if it was, folks should be going to Hope, Earlham, and Kalamazoo - hey, maybe they should be anyway), but rather the number of those entering who think they are pre-med who actually end up there. I don't know about Yale, but the number of JHU and Cornell pre-meds who would have made fabulous doctors but who end up in other professions because of the weed-out is pretty spectacular. </p>

<p>Of course, that's a separate subject. The main subject is whether, relative to other good choices, it is worth the premium. That's a much harder one to figure out. Luckily or unluckily, in our case we couldn't pay the premium if asked, so the question would have been a non-starter.</p>

<p>Med school by the time your d. gets out will be $200k plus. Getting in, regardless of where she goes, might be far easier than paying for it.</p>

<p>"There are 200 law schools in the US. Only three of them are Harvard, Yale, or Stanford." </p>

<p>I haven't seen a shred of evidence or data, not one bit, that indicates that a student who attends HYS on financial aid as an undergraduate has ANY better chance of attending HYS law than that same candidate having attended elsewhere. (By the way, I think they MIGHT, given the impacts of living around financially elite students; but I haven't seen any evidence for it.) Do HYS publish family income stats of their students?</p>

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<p>We've had this argument many times, Aries. I'm not just talking about the Ivies. It's true all the way down the line. If you go to Holy Cross or Georgetown, you've got a better chance of getting into a top med or law school than you do coming from Fairfield or Stonehill. All of these are fine schools, but, yes, where you go makes a difference. It makes the MOST difference, IMO, for the kids who will excel no matter where they go. </p>

<p>And, in this case, I was addressing my remarks in part to curmudgeon, whose D has been accepted at Yale and is being told by others that if she wants to go to med school, she should pass up the chance to go there because it will hurt her chances of getting into a top med school, especially a MD/Ph.D. program. I think that's false. I think it's hard to get into one of those programs, no matter where you go, but it's EASIER coming from Yale.</p>

<p>And, if a kid is CERTAIN--it's rare, but it happens--that the MD/Ph.D. route is what they want, then it's silly to save money on undergrad to pay for med school, because MD/Ph.D. programs are free. Turns out Curmudgeon knew that, but I wasn't sure he did.</p>

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<p>I was not addressing Curmudgeon at all, but rather the question posed by the OP. Yale was not mentioned; nor was MD/Ph.D., which self-funds.</p>

<p>Some of it depends on how great the disparity in school quality is. The undergrad portion of my current university is not a top, top school, but is well-regarded and happens to be very inexpensive (and also offers a lot of merit aid). I really think that it would be a much better option for someone to save $70,000 and go to a highly-regarded, but not top, school and put the cash towards an expensive professional degree.</p>

<p>I really think that most of our disagreement comes from the fact that we have different backgrounds. My guess is that your kids did not take out huge loans for college; it's also my guess that your son isn't paying for all of law school in loans (or, if he is, his school has really strong LRP for public service/low paying jobs). The amount of debt that I'm taking on for law school really frightens me; the fact that I'm putting myself through has dictated a lot of the decisions I've made about where to go to school - and it's still dictating my decisions. I'm a big fan of giving the heads-up to families thinking about education that will last beyond college - that often needs to be financed as well... somehow. </p>

<p>We also disagree over interpretation. I read "name" school to mean something more well-known, not necessarily more highly regarded in academic circles. A lot of LACs don't have the name recognition of universities but will be just as good (perhaps better) for law or med school. I bet more people have heard of Georgetown than Pomona, but the former is not necessarily worth an additional $70,000. Unfortunately, the OP has not been forthcoming with many details... so I gave advice based on my interpretation.</p>