Advice Needed

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>Hey guys I am currently a senior in HS. I was accepted at The University of Chicago and I will attending next year. My eventual goal is Harvard law or another T10 Law school. I want to go into college with a clear plan but I need a little bit of advice.</p>

<p>1) I have been reading around and is it true that specifics major don't really correlate to success or admission into top law schools? I was planning on being either a International Relations major or a Poly Sci major. </p>

<p>2) What GPA should I strive for in order to be in the range of Harvard and other top LS programs?</p>

<p>3) When is a good time to start studying for the LSATs? How hard are they? What is a score to be in the range of Harvard?</p>

<p>4) Do you guys have any tips for my future college life to enhance my chances of being admitted into a T10 school Law school?</p>

<p>Thank you</p>

2

<p>Law schools accept applicants with all kinds of majors. Harvard’s middle 50% range for law school admissions is usually in the 3.75 to 3.95 GPA and 170-175 LSAT. For most, it is very hard to score that well on LSAT. You should plan to take LSAT after junior year and thus start practicing for it, including possibly taking a prep course, three to four months before. You should approach LSAT with mindset to take it once and do well – reason: many law schools don’t consider highest score from multiple tests but still either average multiple test scores or definitely consider any lower scores.</p>

3

<p>Thank you for the advice. Do 3-4 month prep courses truly help? I know of the importance of LSAT. Is admission to law school much more cut and dry than undergraduate admission? I see that a lot of the times if you have a certain LSAT+High GPA+(Other small factors like URM, a lot of ECs, good recs) you have a very good chance at getting into a top law school but with undergraduate admissions even with high SATs and GPA it is still not even a good chance. How do things change with law school admission?</p>

4

<p>College and law school admissions are two almost entirely different things. With college admissions, short of being a Siemens-award-winning, trustee-child athlete superstar, nobody can predict with any certainty whether or not they’ll get into a Harvard, a Yale, or a Princeton. But with law school admissions, you can literally compare your numbers to a grid and have a good idea of whether or not you’ll get into a particular school. For instance, as long as you don’t have a felony record, have done at least a couple of ECs, and don’t commit any egregious errors on the app, then someone with a 3.9/175 is a shoe-in at HLS.</p>

5

<p>It’s a numbers game. High LSAT (most important) and high GPA. You should keep your GPA around a 3.9+ for Harvard and get a 174+ on the LSAT. (My friend was rejected from Harvard with a 3.95 and 177 LSAT, but in general I think 3.9, 174 is safe.)</p>

<p>Also URM is not a small factor in regards to law school admissions. URM status adds 10 points on the LSAT or so (in particular if you are African American).</p>

6

<p>In reply to post #5:</p>

<p>Really? I call shenanigans. A 3.95 GPA/177 LSAT not getting into HLS seems sort of fishy to me.</p>

7

<p>^ He got the call from Toby Stock but I think he really *****ed up the interview. Toby asked him what he was doing until law school began, and as he was unemployed/lounging around at the time, he didn’t say much. Apparently they only call people they will more than likely admit too, so I’m guessing his interview went terribly. </p>

<p>He got into CLS and NYU with scholly though, WL-rejected from Stanford, rejected from Yale, but SY are hard to predict, given their emphasis on ECs (and Stanford’s relatively low LSAT score interquartiles).</p>

8

<p>Now that I got a lot of my info, I just need to start preparing for Chicago’s hellish core. But I know with the drive I have to attend Harvard I can pull off at least a 3.7+. Along with starting my LSAT prep. </p>

<p>In regard to the URM status, my mum has Native American in her (she is from upstate NY mostly white German family but my great grandma was full Native American) Along with being 1/4 Latino from my dad. Will this really help out a lot?</p>

9

<p>In order to claim NA status, you need a tribe number and a larger fraction than that.</p>

<p>On the other hand your 1/4 Latino status may help you quite a bit (think possibly 5-10 LSAT points), but not as much as being African American would.</p>

10

<p>^ 5-10 LSAT points? What are you smoking? And that’s a SMALLER margin than the boost given by African American status? That makes it sound like an African American with a decent GPA and a 158 LSAT can get into YLS.</p>

11

<p>Check law school numbers for the evidence. </p>

<p>Just a few random samples:

  1. A 3.69, 162 URM got into Georgetown. That’s auto reject for non-URM and very WL material if only a 5 point boost in LSAT. (Meaning a non-URM with a 3.69 and 167 would be WL and probably rejected.)</p>

<p>[LSN</a> :: ElroyBlues](<a href=“http://lawschoolnumbers.com/ElroyBlues]LSN”>http://lawschoolnumbers.com/ElroyBlues)</p>

<p>2) A 3.53, 164 African American got into NYU (median LSAT–according to my memory 171/172. A 3.53 is also below median. Those are basically auto reject numbers for non-URM.)</p>

<p>[LSN</a> :: anxiouslyapplied](<a href=“http://lawschoolnumbers.com/anxiouslyapplied]LSN”>http://lawschoolnumbers.com/anxiouslyapplied)</p>

<p>3) A 3.98, 164 got into NYU, Penn, and Michigan. Pretty much auto reject numbers for the entire T-14 if non-URM. </p>

<p>[LSN</a> :: bohemianrevolution](<a href=“http://lawschoolnumbers.com/bohemianrevolution]LSN”>http://lawschoolnumbers.com/bohemianrevolution)</p>

<p>4) 3.45, 165 got into UVA (withdrew). </p>

<p>[LSN</a> :: Cranberries](<a href=“http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Cranberries]LSN”>http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Cranberries)</p>

<p>5) 3.35, 163 got into NYU.</p>

<p>[LSN</a> :: RexRegnat](<a href=“http://lawschoolnumbers.com/RexRegnat]LSN”>http://lawschoolnumbers.com/RexRegnat)</p>

<p>6) This cycle, a 3.99, 159 Mexican American got into Michigan (median LSAT at Michigan is 169). </p>

<p>[LSN</a> :: bjochoa](<a href=“http://lawschoolnumbers.com/bjochoa]LSN”>http://lawschoolnumbers.com/bjochoa)</p>

<p>These are just a few samples from LSN. These numbers are all pretty much auto-reject for the entire T-14 for non-URMs.</p>

<p>Off the top of my own head, I personally know a 3.4, 164 Mexican American who got into NYU and a 163, 3.7 African American who got into Harvard and Stanford. </p>

<p>I am just estimating that the boost for Latino Americans would be somewhere between 5 to 10 LSAT points. And yes African Americans get slightly more…btw, An African American with a high GPA and an early 160s LSAT probably has a decent shot at HS.</p>

12

<p>

</p>

<p>Person in question is a Truman Scholar , which is going to be a major boost to their application regardless of race.</p>

<p>Personally, I would take self reported stats (especially when it comes to factors such as validity and reliability) with a grain of salt because anyone can open an account on LSN (I’ve got a LSN account, had it for a couple of years and can tell you first hand that the numbers are not real. Used a couple of different scenarios to test likelihood of admissions), put in any kind of stats and say that they were admitted anywhere. While LSATs and GPA are the major nuts to crack as far as getting in to law school, you have no way of knowing the roll their recommendation letters, personal statements, diversity statements played in the process.</p>

13

<p>^ When most people start LSN accounts, they are probably not “faking it” like you were. It is indeed a very useful tool. Also many usually bump up their LSAT score and bump down their GPA when fudging their numbers. I doubt people would bump down both their numbers. Since LSAT score is more important in the process, people probably want to seem more “deserving” of their acceptances by bumping up LSAT a tad bit since the LSAT is indeed worth more in the process. </p>

<p>While it is difficult to 100% accurately predict a person’s cycle, numbers pretty much account for most of it. And The truth of the matter is, Affirmative Action is a very real practice, going on among all the top law schools, including Berkeley (despite Proposition 209). The breakdown of 1/3 ECs/WE/PS, 1/3 GPA, 1/3 LSAT was supposedly to counter Prop 209. Since URMs tend to score lower on the LSAT than non-URMs they decided to make GPA worth 1/3 and ECs/WE 1/3. Last year, a URM with a 155 got into Berkeley Law. I believe that depending on how you play your race out in personal statements, you can indeed get a 5-10 LSAT boost for being Latino, and possibly more for being African American.</p>

<p>This topic has been hashed out multiple times. Don’t believe me? Check out this site (given,still self-reported numbers, but very useful and quite accurate for my own cycle) [Law</a> School Probability Calculator](<a href=“http://www.hourumd.com/]Law”>http://www.hourumd.com/) . Change urm status to “yes” and “no” and see what answers you get.</p>

<p>And for kicks and giggles</p>

<p>3.7, 168 URM got into HARVARD!!! Those are pretty much auto reject numbers for non URM.</p>

<p>[LSN</a> :: cardinalabyss](<a href=“http://lawschoolnumbers.com/cardinalabyss/jd]LSN”>http://lawschoolnumbers.com/cardinalabyss/jd)</p>

14

<p>What is the average debt after graduating from a T14 law school? Also what is the probability of getting a top law firm position upon graduating top 10-15% of class at elite law school?</p>

15

<p>Average debt? Not sure, but probably around 150,000. </p>

<p>This is a very conservative estimate, but if you graduate in the top 60% of your class at a T-14 you have a good shot at biglaw jobs. This is the entire point of the T-14… corporate firms tend to dig deep into them. </p>

<p>This doesn’t show how deep firms dig into schools, but this shows the placement of schools in biglaw firms. (Keep in mind self-selection plays a role, as I’m sure Yale could place more into biglaw if Yalies desire it.) This is also biased toward NYC where a lot of the corporate firms are, hence Cornell grads (despite being lower T-14) doing better than some higher ranked T-14. I would still choose a school based on USNews rankings rather than on this chart. </p>

<p><a href=“http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414employment_trends.pdf[/url]”>http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414employment_trends.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

16

<p>^ That estimate for average debt isn’t even close. That figure would suggest that nearly all law school students finance their three years, including tuition and living expenses, by borrowing the full amount. </p>

<p>The actual figures are much lower. According to this article from about three years ago, average debt for graduates of private law schools was around $80K and around $50K for public law school grads: </p>

<p>[lawjobs.com</a> Career Center - As Salaries Rise, So Does the Debt](<a href=“http://www.law.com/jsp/law/careercenter/lawArticleCareerCenter.jsp?id=1138701909390]lawjobs.com”>http://www.law.com/jsp/law/careercenter/lawArticleCareerCenter.jsp?id=1138701909390)</p>

<p>Since the article is a little old, those figures will surely be a bit higher today, but my guess is they have not risen more than $10K in the past three years. Of course, those numbers still represent a pretty substantial amount of debt, but nothing even close to $150K.</p>

17

<p>He asked for the average debt from a T-14 law school…not just "private and public law schools’</p>

18

<p>T-14 schools include both private and public law schools. There is absolutely no reason to believe that T-14 law school students would, on average, borrow more than other law school students to finance their education. And regardless of whether it’s a T-14 school or a T4 school, tuition costs are largely the same.</p>

19

<p>Yes, thanks for enlightening me that the T-14 includes both private and public…:rollseyes: But don’t T-14 schools offer less schollys/need-based aid on average?</p>

20

<p>As far as T-14 schools not offering as many scholarships, I’m not sure on that, but if anything, I would expect their need-based aid to be even more generous than most law schools. And even if T-14 students did receive less aid on average, their average debt would still not even come close to the figure you suggested. The figure you suggested would only be possible if T-14 schools gave out virtually nothing in aid AND T-14 students borrowed nearly the entire cost of law school.</p>