Advice on skipping ahead in math?

<p>My S’s school skipped him in both Algebra I and Geometry and placed him in Algebra II in the sixth grade. I was a little nervous about this because he had no formal coursework or tutoring in either subject. I was especially nervous about the geometry because he never even had access to a book. Apparently, one of the teachers at his elementary school had given him a CD on geometry and let him use it on her computer.</p>

<p>He got perfect scores on the math sections of the PSAT, SAT I, and SAT II. He took college math classes his freshman, sophomore, and senior years of high school. He took no math at all his junior year, but took two AP sciences. He was accepted ED to Princeton as a math major. </p>

<p>I asked him once if he thought not taking geometry hurt him. He said he is a little “weaker” in geometry than in other areas in higher level math competitions, but he says he knows more geometry than would have been taught in an honors geometry class. Allowing the school to advance him in math was the best thing we ever did because he was able to stay with his classmates in other subject areas and he’s really enjoying his senior year.</p>

<p>Geometry is definitely tested on the PSAT and the SAT, and both the new PSAT and SAT include more advanced math than previously was the case. </p>

<p>My daughter will have completed AP Calc BC by the end of junior year, but math and science/engineering are not her main interests. I asked aisforadmissions (Michele Hernandez) if she thought it would adversely affect my daughter's shot at the most selective colleges if she didn't take math as a senior, and the answer was "no." <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=720629#post720629%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=720629#post720629&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I recommend a somewhat different strategy: take pre-calc in summer school and geometry in regular school. Pre-calc is about half a rehash of algebra and half trig. It isn't a difficult course. The trig is fairly easy to pick up. Geometry, on the other hand, is the first introduction most students have to proofs. Proofs are building blocks for future math courses so a thorough grounding in them is very helpful for students who wish to pursue math/science.</p>

<p>I tested out of geometry prior to sophomore year; it's doable if your son is willing to study a couple of hours everyday.</p>

<p>I haven't read all the postings, but will share my own experience. When I was in jr high, I was invited to the accelerated program - starting algebra a year early. I took geometry at the same time as algebra II in high school (I think there was only one semester of overlap). Took calculus at the jr college in my senior year. etc. I really loved math, but took a year off my freshman year in college, but ultimately saw the way of truth and beauty and got my BA in mathematics. This was a zillion years ago; I received my BA in 1977.</p>

<p>I agree with some of the other posters that there should be an option for your son in his senior year. I don't particularly favor accelerating one's math education. Getting a good, solid foundation is important (IMO), and rushing through the material can risk that. </p>

<p>What does your son want to do? If he just can't get enough of math so he wants to study during the summer - fine. Otherwise, I don't see the rush, and think there is value in going through the entire curriculum in the usual timeframe. It is ok to find math easy now; it will become more challenging downstream.</p>

<p>Now that I've reread the original post, I have to emphasize more strongly than before that if the boy loves math, the key thing to do is not mainly to speed faster through the standard curriculum, but to do things BEYOND the standard curriculum. With two more month's notice, I could have recommended several excellent summer programs at which he could meet other math-eager learners. There may still be a chance to gain admission to a few of those. </p>

<p>Definitely, next school year hit the ground running in participating in math competitions, especially the AMC tests. And someone in the Boston area ought to be involved in the Cambridge Math</a> Circle at the earliest opportunity, methinks. The Math Circle is top priority if he has only time for one more activity, but the math contests are very valuable experiences too.</p>

<p>I definitely recommend the Math Circle. It is really wonderful. My S, in fact, pretty much learned all his geometry through the Math Circle, including a class on compass and straight edge geometry that rescued him from boredom in 6th grade. It is totally the opposite of math contests in spirit, however. No practice, no homework, just everybody learning together. My S has had six years of fun in the Math Circle.</p>

<p>Marite - your description of the math circle is exactly how I would describe my competitive group, not "totally opposite" at all. Our team meetings are very much "for the pure enjoyment of it". Kids sit around a large table working on interesting problems together and helping each other. The problems are drawn from competitions because competition problems tend to be creative and fun to work on, but we are certainly not doing anything like timed drills. Kids stagger in at different times, and just pick a problem they'd like to start on. They come and go as they please. They chit-chat and give each other hints. We eat cookies. There's no homework, no grades. It's all very low-key. The amount of time spent over the course of a year actually doing anything competitive, or even anything timed, is very small. Tournaments are totally optional, and I have had some kids who attended meetings regularly but never attended tournaments (although the tournaments may be more fun and less stress than you are imagining). The other high school teams I know about that have regular meetings run pretty much the same. The team provides a structure in which contests like the AMC exams can be given, but that's just one day out of the entire year. Regular meetings are not the least bit like a team practice for say, a sport. Your son would probably feel right at home with us.</p>

<p>All I can say is WOW. I can't thank you enough for sharing all your experiences and thoughts. The links to ESPY, Math Circle and the Calculus article were especially helpful. I also appreciate the "depth"/"enrichment" over "acceleration" perspective as well, since that has tended to be our philsophy all along. </p>

<p>EllenF, taking pre-calc on his own was actually my son's original plan, and we might still go with that if scheduling doesn't work out. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, it's great to have all of these different options to consider, and I thank you all for the wealth of information you've provided!</p>

<p>If your son decides to study pre-calc on his own, you may want to purchase Margaret Lial's book. It is excellent.</p>

<p>Johns Hopkins CTY, like Stanford's EPGY, offers geometry and precalculus as distance, online courses conducted at the student's own pace. The software programs are different, but both institutions may have sample lessons available to try out.</p>

<p>My S studied pre-calc on his own in 7th grade using the Stewart, Watson, Redlin text. He was allowed to sit at a separate table with other advanced kids working at their own pace. His dad chose the exercises and corrected them, and occasionally explained concepts; but by and large my S found the text very clear. He covered it in one semester mostly because he did not have to do busywork or wait for the rest of the class. Another student, whose parents were too busy to perform the same function as my H, hired a tutor who met with their child twice a week to assign problems and go over them. It probably ended up costing as much as EPGY but it did offer real human interaction. What my S appreciated about the setup was the contact with classmates, even though they all worked at different levels and often talked baseball or politics or something else unrelated to math.</p>

<p>MGMom - also check out the books and internet courses at <a href="http://www.artofproblemsolving.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.artofproblemsolving.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>MGMom, if you are considering the "study on his own" option (that is, if you do not necessarily want to get the school credit) you may want to check out the Thinkwell CDs and ALEKS online program. Either will be less expensive than EPGY or CTY, and my S2 used the combination for precalculus (brushed up with ALEKS after he finished the Thinkwell disk). Judging by his SAT II Math IC (after High School Algebra II class) and SAT II Math IIC (after precalc self-study with Thinkwell and ALEKS), they work better than High School (about 140 points better) :) This son is not a Math person at all, and he is quite a lazy kid, so he did not really spent a lot of time studying - if it worked for him, should work for anybody!
<a href="http://www.thinkwell.com/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thinkwell.com/&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.aleks.com/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.aleks.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>the Thinkwell and ALEKS look interesting!</p>

<p>Regarding the math circle, my son, now a junior, got into it just this year and he really likes it. No HW pressure, etc. Just playing with math.</p>

<p>For his last year in HS he will probably take a few of the college level EPGY classes, i.e. Number Theory and more advanced Calculus. Though I think I will look more closely at the Thinkwell and ALEKS offerings, particularly the AP Statistics.</p>

<p>The Thinkwell software is what CTY uses for Calculus, and we just bought it directly from the company for Calculus BC. It cost about $70---FAR less than we would have paid had we wanted the tutor, which he didn't need, and the piece of paper at the end of the course. It's worked well for him. GREAT little lectures and access to lots of good material for exercises.</p>

<p>Ctymom, I went to the site and the software looks interesting. However, I only see a title for Calculus. Is the BC component (the component that my son needs since he finished AB this year) the Calculus II portion of the Calculus class?</p>

<p>Additionally, I went to check the JHU-CTY site and the course layout for Calculus BC appears different. Does JHU customize the Thinkwell software to their requirements/specifications?</p>

<p>BTW, I am now more interested in the Thinkwell software for a few reasons. The teacher, Edward Burger is a professor at one of the schools my son is interested in, Williams. Further, professor Burger collaborated with Professor Starbird at UT. Professor Starbird is the professor used in 'The Teaching Companies' video, Calculus Made Clear. And the price is significantly less than the EPGY class.</p>

<p>My son will probably still take the number theory class through EPGY. However, I am suddenly leaning toward the Thinkwell software for the Calculus BC. Thank you and marmat for the reference!</p>

<p>
[quote]
Professor Starbird is the professor used in 'The Teaching Companies' video, Calculus Made Clear.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>We have that. Starbird is a terrific teacher. My son had the good fortune to take a topology course with him at UT. The video calculus course is sort of a calculus-appreciation thing. It would be an nice general introduction prior to the study of calculus, but would not be preparation for either AP exam. My son watched those in middle school, along with working through an AP review book (Calculus the Easy Way by Doug Downing. Barron's). In 9th grade he did problems from prior calculus AP exams (order the book at <a href="http://www.moems.org/calcSolo.htm)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.moems.org/calcSolo.htm)&lt;/a>. He took the BC exam at the end of 9th grade, and was probably over-prepared.</p>

<p>Hi Eagle, Since my son did not do BC through CTY, I can't answer that question directly, and I'm not sure you'd get a straight answer out of the math dept at CTY. I could try to get one for you indirectly through my writing buddies, but the departments aren't close, so my guess is that my son could look at the CTY outline and answer your question better, having just completed the Thinkwell course and taken the AP exam.</p>

<p>I'll try to remember to ask him to do just that when he gets home from school today. But he does have APUSH tomorrow (right after AP LIT today), so if I don't get him to do it right away, PM me and remind me, K?</p>

<p>Marite - Your boy is obviously not a regular kid who can go faster than the standard AP curriculum. He's a prodigy. As you've posted I've always thought it would be so cool to meet him. Then there are the other kids who love math and are fabulous at it and want to accelerate. I struggle a little bit as I have previously posted about what to do about my S. He's in Geometry honors as a freshman. This will put him in Calc BC as a senior, just like my D. So my D came home from the Calc BC AP exam and told me it was really easy and she would have gotten a 5 without studying.</p>

<p>Let's be clear. Neither of my kids are math prodigies. They will not be mathematicians. That's a different world.</p>

<p>We've been very old hippie type school people. Sent them to a place with no homework all through 8th grade. Worked fine for my D. She buckled down and got really into high school and made up for what I now see was minimal academic challenge by getting interested in the school itself.</p>

<p>Son&only is different. More solitary. Got all As but comments like "I wish he were more engaged." Commended for humor but slight intimation of wiseass behavior. We've talked to him about that.</p>

<p>However, I believe it's partly boredom. I want to give him these kinds of opportunities people are discussing here but as I say, he is not a math prodigy. I mentioned EPGY to him, and said there he might find other smart kids who are also cool. He said longingly that he would like that. </p>

<p>So my question is, and sorry for the length of this post, are these programs good for non-prodigies who are bored in regular AP/Honors tracks? And for kids who on the outside like to hang out with other cool kids and play on the soccer team and refuse to tell anyone they play online Magic card tournaments?</p>

<p>Really could use advice here. I have promised not to push him but I worry I will let him be bored and that is equally silly as a parent. TIW.</p>