Advice: Physical Therapy vs Nursing

<p>I still think one should at least consider return on investment. Where I live, the average physical therapist, with 10 years of experience, makes around $80k, which is 10% less than my wife and her colleagues with two-year RNs (and without BA’s) make at three years. In one case, it is $200k plus the cost of an undergraduate degree, in the other, roughly $10k, plus one year of prep. (However, it is more difficult to get into the two-year RN program than into the DPT programs.)</p>

<p>The world needs good physical therapists, and will likely need more of them in the future. But the return on investment, in the health care field, is frankly pitiful.</p>

<p>^^^FWIW I was surprised about that statement about saleries, and since I haven’t worked for a salery in many years I had didn’t know what the saleries were in either profession. I did a search in my state and city and connected with Indeed.com. Their statement of average saleries is incomsistent with Mini’s statement.</p>

<p>I used Indeed.com as well as a city/state search. (But even if you assume it was $10k higher after 10 years, it would still be a very poor return on investment.)</p>

<p>Mini: The return on investment is a very real issue. There are some DPT’s I know that wouldn’t do anything else. It is about their passion and with a lot of work they pay off the loans more quickly. But the cost vs. income return is a very strong deterrent. I agree with you there. From what I saw your post about saleries was misleading. At least in my area PT’s are significantly higher paid than RN’s are, according to Indeed.com.</p>

<p>Well, I don’t know what nurses make here. Only hospices nurses. And they make significantly more than the average PT (according to Indeed.com for the PT salaries.) </p>

<p>We NEED PTs, (as well as nurses) - I’m not sure how we are going to get enough of either.</p>

<p>Mini, Spectrum-</p>

<p>Salary.com might be more helpful. You’re able to search by job title/subsets and state/metro area. </p>

<p>[Average</a> Physical Therapist Salary Information plus Job, Career Education & Unemployment Help](<a href=“http://www1.salary.com/Physical-Therapist-Salary.html]Average”>http://www1.salary.com/Physical-Therapist-Salary.html)</p>

<p>[Average</a> Staff Nurse - RN Salary Information plus Job, Career Education & Unemployment Help](<a href=“http://www1.salary.com/registered-nurse-Salary.html]Average”>http://www1.salary.com/registered-nurse-Salary.html)</p>

<p>[PT</a> Salary in Olympia, WA | Indeed.com](<a href=“http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-PT-l-Olympia,-WA.html]PT”>http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-PT-l-Olympia,-WA.html)</p>

<p>The average RN nurse salary will be about $5k lower. However, because virtually all hospice nurses have to work one additional weekend a month, and the shortage of them is such that they virtually all do their paperwork afer the 40-hour work week (at time and a half), their average take-home is significantly higher.</p>

<p>But it doesn’t matter, when you consider that the RN works after 2+ years of college, and the PT after 7-8 (and at much higher cost for all of those years, while the RN gets an LPN after the first year and usually begins work).</p>

<p>I think PTs should be paid more (much more)- after all, they did put in all those years. But it just doesn’t work that way.</p>

<p>Thanks Crewdad, that was about the difference that I was seeing in my area on Indeed. Hospice nurses are special people so it is good that they are well compensated for that job. It is interesting that they get paid for overtime. It is not unusual for saleried PT’s to work more than a 40 hour week but at least here they are generally exempt from overtime pay. There is also often a weekend rotation but when they work weekends they usually get time off during the week. Many new grads take on home health patients or work additional hours evenings or weekends at a PRN rate at another facility to increase their income. It is sad that the educational costs have gotting so insane yet it seems that there are more applicants to these schools than there are spaces for them. It isn’t unusual for a PT department to have college graduate techs assisting in the PT dept while applying to PT school, and if they don’t get in when they first apply they may stick around another year and then reapply. I guess the nature of the job and the relative job security makes the job appealing at any price.</p>

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<p>Thing is they probably shouldn’t go to school for as long as they do…</p>

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<p>Of course, isn’t that the argument given of why new physicians have a starting salary of at least twice the salary of the PT? My PT saved me from shoulder surgery which was a huge cost savings to the insurance company. But, it was a larger net cost to me with high co-pays and limited number of visits allowed per year. Multiply that by thousands of probably unnecessary orthopedic surgeries. I don’t understand a system which basically encourages surgical solutions as opposed to rehab. </p>

<p>Yes, PTs should be paid more but unfortunately the value of a PT is not recognized in our current health system. I suspect PT’s are utilized more effectively in the industrialized countries that spend a lot less on medical care than we do with better results.</p>

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<p>Which university costs $200k for a DPT degree? </p>

<p>For comparison, the three year DPT degree at USC costs only 75k. That doesn’t include living expenses but still… I’d consider the ROI significant. As a bonus, it’s difficult to outsource PT jobs to India. Virtual reality needs a few tweaks before that will happen. ;)</p>

<p>there are many 3+3 PT programs…I would say the ROI investment for any extra 2 years isn’t too shabby compared to many 4 year undergrad degrees.</p>

<p>[Tuition</a>, Fees, & Payment | College of Health & Rehabilitation Sciences: Sargent College](<a href=“http://www.bu.edu/sargent/admissions/costs-loans-scholarships/tuition-fees-payment/]Tuition”>http://www.bu.edu/sargent/admissions/costs-loans-scholarships/tuition-fees-payment/)</p>

<p>$60k plus currently per year, going up at a rate of 7% a year (plus four-year BA). To end up with a job where the average pay is less than that (at least in my town) earned by a two-year RN hospice nurse.</p>

<p>^sure…if you want to go to BU. There are much cheaper options in getting your license…and PT is not the same as a hospice nurse.</p>

<p>No, it isn’t. It pays less. (It shouldn’t, I don’t think, but it does.)</p>

<p>But BU IS Full. They fill up the program every year, and reject far more candidates than they accept. About $200k, and no working while you are doing it. Plus the cost of the BA.</p>

<p>NYU costs even more, and is also full. (Both, however, are easier to get into than our local two-year RN program.)</p>

<p>The least expensive way to a DPT is thru a 6 or 7 yr instate or city uni program if there are any but the seats are very limited and competition stiff. Those who have the $$ or are willing to go into deep debt take the private route if they get in. Either way, once out in the real world earnings are more or less fixed no matter the letters behind your name or the school you graduated from and with health care costs increasing and managed care there is no reason to believe salaries with dramatically increase to offset the debt of the additional educational requirements.</p>

<p>It is important to remember that a PT is able to to set up a private practice. In the states with direct access, a PT is able to operate autonomously. </p>

<p>The majority of PTs work regular hours, or may choose to work additional hours but without onus of shift-work, particularly night shifts. PTs do not frequently work every weekend, and seldom both weekend days. PTs do not work most major holidays except in the hospital setting.</p>

<p>PT salaries vary but traveling PTs can make a substantially higher salary than “sedentary” PTs. The drawback is frequent travel every 6 months or year, but the benefit is travel every 6 months or year. Some PTs can make in excess of 120K as a “traveler”. Many traveler PTs are young, unattached and mobile. This is useful for paying back loans rapidly.</p>

<p>Private practice PTs with effective work efficiencies can make substantially more than the standard hospital based staff PT. These amounts can be found on “salary” websites. It is important to realize that PTs starting in the profession working in a hospital setting may earn half or a third as much as a PT with 5-10 years experience working in private practice, and the salary figures may be taking the average of such settings. PT practice environments tend to be more heterogenous than nursing environments.</p>

<p>There are also many female PTs who only work partial hours while taking care of young families; thus their annual income is reflected by a 24 hour week or a 36 hour week as the standard work routine.</p>

<p>PTs are also able to specialize and subspecialize in a wide variety of medical fields. Some PTs deal only with sports orthopedic clients, while others deal with a more general population. PT offers flexibility in the choice of clientele once the basic experiences have been obtained.</p>

<p>The importance of the doctorate level PT is in regards to the continued advancement of the profession. In the 1960s, people gained entry into the profession through a two year certificate program. By the 1990s, most programs advanced to a 6 year MS, or a 2 year MS following 4 year baccalaureate degrees, with increasing rigor added to the curricula and entrance requirements. Now the new standard is a 7 to 8 year DPT with more difficult entrance requirements and more demanding course requirements. As they stand now, DPT-program entrance requirements are more difficult and more selective than the majority of those for nursing programs.</p>

<p>It is not the case that OT and PT practice scopes are “very similar”. There were moves by unscrupulous corporations in the 1990s and 2000s to recklessly merge the practice models as a means to impede professional autonomy, and increase revenue at detriment to the care provided to the patient base. Most of these corporations have since been destroyed by a combination of their own greed and Medicare regulatory changes. </p>

<p>A student interested in either PT or OT will need to research the practice scopes carefully to understand the important distinctions.</p>

<p>Nursing, and hospital-based and home-health PT and OT, are all direct care professions. They are not interchangeable although some of their functions overlap. In the case of outpatient PTs and nurses, there is no overlap at all.</p>

<p>If the impetus is to make money, there are more lucrative professions such as pharmacy or investment banking. I presume that people who work their way to reach a DPT degree are doing so because they have some specific interest in practicing as a PT, for the sake of enjoying that particular kind of work, not for the sake of making more money or worrying about whether the pay is more or less than that made by people performing other professions, doing entirely different or depressing things that one has no interest in.</p>

<p>Interesting post DPT. When I graduated from PT school in the late 70’s with a bachelor’s it felt like the program should have been a masters and it made complete sense to me that the profession upgraded. But I don’t really understand how the program has changed with the upgrade to a DPT. It seems hard for graduates to articulate this because they are usually only familiar with the particular program they went through. The question I continue to have is how can PTA’s do all that they do with an associates degree if becoming a PT requires a doctorate. At the time I had to make a decision between PT and OT I made the decison with some flawed rationale but I never regretted it. I however don’t doubt that I would have been equally happy as an OT. I agree that there are some real differences in the two fields but sometimes the differences are more imposed by the institution than by the skill set cultivated by education. There are at least two settings that I have seen thereapists function interchangably, those would be hand therapy and pediatrics particularly in the 0-3 age range. There is also extensive overlap in some facilities and private practices in the treatment of severely involved neourological patients. In any case even when there are real differences in what each discipline does the patient contact and interraction is very similar. I’m sure that for some people becoming a PT is the only choice that feels right but for others going the direction of OT or even ST might be equally fulfilling and preferable given the decreased time and money needed to acquire the degree. Some people might also look at nursing or PA programs but those jobs are very different than PT.
With regard to the unscrupulous practice to in the 90’s and 2000, I somehow missed that, but it doesn’t surprise me that it would have happened. There however have been many times over the years that PT’s and OT’s worked so hard to defend their territories that it became ridiculous. In the clinical setting I much prefer to embrace the similarities than to draw artificial boundaries. But without a doubt it depends alot on the particular setting you are working in and one of the amazing things about both fields are the spectrum of opportunities available.</p>

<p>I don’t know if we’ve lost the OP, but I see the original post not so much as a “merits of PT” question as an “undergrad debt load” question. The OP is wondering if s/he can afford to proceed to grad school at this time, given the large UG debt load. Implicit in that question is another question – if the OP does not proceed directly to grad school, has the UG degree prepared OP to support him/herself while paying down that UG debt? Nursing would be other, further education. The OP seemed to assume that nursing would be a quicker path to economic viability, but that isn’t clear.</p>

<p>Looking at the start date of this thread I am guessing that Sad Student had to make her decision by 5/1. Sadstudent if you are out there what did you decide. Hopefully whatever decison you made you are no longer a sad student! Good luck with whatever path you take!</p>