<p>I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the Engineering majors forum, but I thought that perhaps a few parents might have some insights regarding my rising high school senior S's situation. He's a strong all-around student (all A's in most rigorous curriculum in large public CA school); all 5's and one 4 on several AP's, 800's on 3 SAT II's, mid to high-700's on the 3 parts of SAT's (taken once, won't retake). He's always been most interested in math and science, and he has done a couple of summer programs, one in astrophysics and one in math, that involved study and some independent research. He's taken AP chemistry and is planning AP physics this year. At this point, he thinks he'll probably major in physics or perhaps physical chemistry, but he thinks he might also be interested in engineering. The problem is, he's never really been exposed to engineering. He's read the descriptions of what the different engineering fields are all about, but feels that he won't know if he's really interested in engineering until he takes courses in it. For some of the colleges to which he's applying, he doesn't need to make the decision between physics or chemistry and engineering until sophomore year, so there's no problem. However, some schools, such as UCLA, UC Berkeley, and Carnegie Mellon, require that the student apply as a freshman into the school of engineering, and into a specific engineering major;supposedly, it's almost impossible to transfer in later, even into that major.</p>
<p>So, what is a student like my son to do if he doesn't really know at this point if that's the route he wants to go? A couple of people have advised him to apply to engineering at schools such as UCLA because one takes basic math and science in the first and second years, and it's easy to transfer out of engineering into science, just not the other way around. However, he would have to specify a particular field in engineering, such as EE or Chemical Engineering, and he really has no clue which he would prefer, if either. He likes math; he likes chemistry; he likes physics; he basically likes every physical science to which he's been exposed; he recently has been studying climatology for one of his extracurricular activities and he likes that. So he keeps saying, "How can I choose now whether I want science or engineering, when I don't even know which particular science I'm going to want to major in?"</p>
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How can I choose now whether I want science or engineering, when I don't even know which particular science I'm going to want to major in?
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<p>The admissions strategy for the CA applicant here must be, it seems to me, to apply into the engineering programs and then transfer out to science programs if need be. Knowing only my alma mater's engineering program, I find that first-year engineering is likely to all be math and science anyhow, but for a few electives, so there is no risk in applying that way, meeting lots of fellow students during the first year, and then deciding upon a major at the usual time. Just be sure to do well in all the math and science courses, the better to have maximum choice.</p>
It is now up from a couple to 3 with that advice . LOL. </p>
<p>Another consideration is to look at any of the fine LAC's that would allow him to engage a heavy math science curriculum in a 3/2 engineering program with some fine research U's. IMO this would allow for greatest flexibility. He would be a fine candidate for merit aid (if everything is as stellar as GPA and tests), would help gender balance, and in the words of my heavy math/science D's mentor - "(s)he can throw things against the wall and see what sticks." Good luck.</p>
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A couple of people have advised him to apply to engineering at schools such as UCLA because one takes basic math and science in the first and second years, and it's easy to transfer out of engineering into science, just not the other way around.
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In general, I like that advice. I am not up on the "impacted majors" situation at the UCs, so that may complicate his situation. Are any of his possible majors impacted? </p>
<p>At most engineering programs, the first year is largely math and science, but the second year is fairly heavy into engineering, so it's not two whole years before he gets much of a taste for the Engineering. At some schools, they take a couple of significant engineering courses during the first year, and defer a couple of the basic sciences til the second year. Even better for that "taste." </p>
<p>As you are California residents, the financial attraction of the UCs is obvious. Such a great value for top-notch schools. If it weren't for that, I'd say - the UC's are not for him. Too restrictive given his open-mindedness about his major. He has such a strong record that many great schools beyond the UCs will be open to him. Will he be a candidate for good need-based aid, taking the sting out of eliminating the UC's? Will he be interested in great schools a notch below the uber-selectives where he could get great merit $$? Is cost even a consideration (so many of us just love the idea of full-pay at $40-50K/yr ;) ), because if it isn't, I would again say to look beyond the UC's for more open options about moving out of Engineering into a science, or betwen Engineering majors, if he decides that after freshman or sophomore year.</p>
<p>Finally, my (engineering) son did two brief job shadows at the end of his Senior year as part of the Senior Transition Project at his hs. Exposed him, albeit briefly, to the real world of two Engineering disciplines and helped confirm in my mind (he already felt confirmed) that Engineering and specifically EE was what he wanted. Your S might want to seek something like that out during the coming months or over senior summer.</p>
<p>Re curmudgeon's suggestion of the 3/2 programs. There are some great-sounding programs out there. However, we were advised that the flaw in these is that the kid really does not want to make the move out of his (now-beloved) LAC at the end of the junior year, leaving all his established relationships behind for what would have been his senior year. This advice seemed realistic to us and so S didn't look in that direction.</p>
<p>However, it might be nice to hear of any success stories with a 3/2 program.</p>
<p>Here's one more suggestion. Dartmouth offers a B.A. in Engineering Sciences. It is also possible to get a B.S. in Engineering after a fifth year -- probably comparable to a 3/2 program at other schools without transferring. It is not broken down into the varying types of engineering, and would leave open the possibility of pursuing a different science.</p>
<p>As to jmmom's suggestion of schools right below the uber elites- I'd think about Case and UMiami. IMO he would be a good merit candidate at both. They were both generous to D. </p>
<p>As to not wanting to leave the LAC after 3 years, I think that probably happens after 4 years to some kids , too.;)</p>
<p>An option that my S utilized were Engineering Days at universities that he was interested in. We went to quite a few and most followed the same path. An general engineering talk, then prospective students were divided up and toured the various engineering departments. My S thought about Chemical Engineering but after touring the Chem E departments and having co-op students talk about thier co-ops, he decided to pursue Material Science Engineering. The course selection and co-ops that the MSE students talked about were more interesting to him.</p>
<p>My S always knew that he wants to be a working engineer and pursued schools that were geared towards practical engineering experiences. I wonder if your S would be more geared towards research and therefore would be more comfortable in a theoritical approach in the school that he would be interested in.</p>
<p>I am not familar with CA schools but I'm sure that someone on CC would be better informed that I am.</p>
<p>I am familar with midwest schools and an example of practical engineering is Rose-Hulman. An example of a theoritical approach is the University of Michigan. So even within engineering, there are different approaches.</p>
<p>Thanks so much for all the great advice so far. My son is planning to apply to MIT and Harvey Mudd, though as we all know, there's no guarantee that any student will get into such schools, especially MIT. And, the lower cost of the UC's is certainly attractive, as we will not qualify for any need-based aid. I would love for him to find a couple of other "less than uber-elite" smaller schools to consider, but he doesn't really want to go anywhere that's super cold or remote; Dartmouth is not too appealing, for those reasons. I like the idea of "engineering days"; we'll have to look into some of those.</p>
<p>It's interesting to hear about students who always have known that they want to be working engineerings. We've never seen our son as the "engineering type." Other than obsessively building Legos from early childhood until about age 12, he's never really shown any interest in exploring how mechanical things work or building things; he's never been one to take the radio apart, for instance, to see how it works. But, perhaps that's not really all there is to the "engineering type"?</p>
<p>I think the question of what makes an engineer is a very good one. People that I trust tell me that taking things apart is actually the key indicator. Even software architects will tell you, for the most part, that they took things apart as kids. That's why even though my son most prefers math and science I have never thought he would become an engineer. He doesn't even like to tinker with his computer. Now, it's also true that he has lived all his life in a house with people who prefer to write poetry and grow orchids and build furniture and read books, so perhaps if he had had that example in his parents it would be different. </p>
<p>What do those parents who are/have kids who are engineers think?</p>
<p>There definitely are the engineering guys who are just super math wizards ... and can't put the doorknob back together. I'm married to one (BSCE, MSCE, MBA). Guess which one of us can dignose the car and set up the appliances.</p>
<p>Neither my H (BSEE, MSEE) nor S (plans to be an EE or ECE) are tinkerers, taker-aparters. But they are problem-solvers. Math and science lovers. Interested in the concrete, I'd say. DH can pretty much fix anything around the house, but about 10 years ago, decided to pretend that he can't :p. Both are good writers, DH technical/business writer; DS creative writer. DS is musical to the max. DH can't carry a tune OR move to the beat. Neither are nerds, but both have a healthy respect for those who are. Go figure.</p>
<p>I think there may be a "type." But they go somewhat against it? Oh, well, they do love their gadgets.</p>
<p>Not cold or isolated, but where he might get merit $$: Santa Clara U, Vanderbilt, Johns Hopkins (not many do, but some, so depends on how outstanding his qualifications are), WUStL, UMiami (already mentioned by curmudgeon).</p>
<p>Not as cold or isolated as Dartmouth, but do have winter and aren't in a big city (but big city is reachable for day trip): Lafayette, Lehigh, Case Western Reserve.</p>
<p>There are others, those are just the ones I know about.</p>
<p>A good value even if no merit $$: Rice. Ditto and in a great city, but cold: McGill.</p>
<p>If you haven't scrolled through the Schools Known for Good Merit Aid threads or the merit award threads started by curmudgeon, they would be good hunting grounds.</p>
<p>More about "engineering days", please. What are ways that kids can learn about engineering before committing to a program, or discarding schools because engineering is not a possibility? Assume a background of science and history loving family, with no engineering experience. How do they learn what "real" engineers do? Or is that something they learn during college, but before they are committed to engineering? Or do they end up as lawyers like Ariesathena???</p>
<p>Oh, and Rice sounds like a great suggestion.</p>
<p>I think the question of who is a natural engineer may come down to "concrete vs abstract." S1, a current physics major, was interested in engineering, and our first look at colleges meant that we considered many of the schools already mentioned. But I honestly didn't see him that way -- he's always been more of an abstract learner, and interested in theory. My younger son is more the "let's take it apart and see how it works" kind of kid. My husband works in software engineering, but has degrees in math. The key attibute to both fields is the interest in solving problems. Unless a kid is absolutely sure of engineering, I'd suggest looking at schools where it's not too difficult to transfer into another major.</p>
<p>I've mentioned this before, so sorry for the repetition. I have two sisters with M.S.E.E. and neither one is mechanical or practical. But they are both bright.</p>
<p>Marilee Jones's spiel about mens et manus at MIT clarified for S why MIT was not the best fit for him despite its stupendous math department, but also why it was the best fit for some of his friends. S is just not a hands-on person, even though he is the one who fixes things around our house.</p>
<p>I also think that there is a difference between electrical/computer/software engineering and mechanical/chemical/civil engineering. The first category seems to me to be more about logic, and the second grouping is more hands-on and spatial. So people who are good at math and science in general, will probably enjoy electrical or systems engineering. But I think it takes a different kind of person to enjoy mechanical or chemical engineering.</p>
<p>BIG caveat -- I'm a liberal arts type, but I boldly make these generalizations based on people I know in these different areas.</p>
<p>sjmom, good thought. Oddly enough, one of the most brilliant software people I know actually most enjoys his second volunteer job as the architect for his own house and now another building on his property. He among my colleagues is absolutely on the farthest side of the abstract v. concrete, and is known for elegant software architecture too. Now another guy I know, he lives for gadgets, and his software prowess is in performance tuning and transactions. He fits the hardware/mechanical profile much more, and is extremely hands-on.</p>
<p>Really I would advise applying to universities where you don't have to commit to early to a major. I would strongly suggest applying to Stanford, he's got great stats and has a good shot at getting there. I was in the exact same situation your son has last year, I love chemistry, math and physics and I'm thinking of majoring in Chemical Enigneering but I'm not sure.
In a few weeks I'm going to Stanford and I don't need to declare my major for two years! I'm thrilled because I can actually see if I like engineering before commiting to it!</p>