Affirmative action from a Korean POV.

Applying to College
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I'm tired of addressing this anyway, especially with the same information that everyone chooses to ignore

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<p>I don't blame him. You can offer statistics, you can offer well-researched information, you can offer the perspectives of people who have been very thoughtful about the pluses and minuses of this policy. But such information does seem to largely be ignored, at least by some here on CC. You can't blame people for feeling tired of it.</p>

<p>It is especially unmotivating to be faced with the kind of hyperbole found in the OP. "The ONLY thing AA does is encourage LAZY URMs to sit on their ASSES..." This is someone who wants to hear a rebuttal? Welcomes another point of view? I'm skeptical.</p>

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<p>AA = bad. It's like welfare (although that's now limited, thank god).</p>

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<p>Just out of curiosity, to the people who think college admissions should "just be based on merit," do you believe African-Americans are inherently less intelligent? Because 29% of whites get a BA or higher, compared to 13% of blacks, so it's clear that, even with affirmative action, simply being an African-American makes a person much less likely to get a college education. As a poor white student, I did not have many of the opportunities that wealthier students have. However, I was also never discriminated against. Sometimes, when people start out at a lower point, it's a good idea to make up for it later on. Even when a URM comes from a more privileged background, he/she probably lacks many opportunities that come from highly placed connections that whites have simply because the family lacks the history of many upper-class whites.</p>

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he/she probably lacks many opportunities that come from highly placed connections that whites have simply because the family lacks the history of many upper-class whites.

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<p>what ??? what does family history have to do with anything???</p>

<p>I don't think African-Americans are less intelligent. I don't think that the %s you posted have anything to do with this</p>

<p>you do realize that you, as a poor white student are hurt THE MOST by AA??? Rich minorities benefit at your expense.</p>

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<p>I have some somewhat unconventional arguments, but consider them - you might find it interesting if nothing else.</p>

<p>Academic powerhouses that are Black, Hispanic, or Native American are RARE. As are nationally ranked athletes, national competition winners, etc. Colleges want a DIVERSE population, which requires a variety of backgrounds, environments, challenges, and accomplishments. </p>

<p>By percentages, whites and Asians are more likely to score a 1500 on the old SAT than blacks are to score a 1300. That being said, a black student who scores a 1450, 1500, 1550 is an incredible student who overcame a lot to make it to where they are - whether that be a poor environment, racism, or social pressures. And believe it or not, most of these students were likely susceptible to a multitude of these prejudices, whether or not as a non-black/Hispanic/N.A. you noticed them.</p>

<p>The other argument is that when we go to college we are learning about the world. This isn't just about biology or medicine or business - it's about learning to work with all kinds of people, meeting all kinds of people, and growing as a person, not just as a brain. If the top colleges just took all the white and Asian kids with the killer SATs & $8,000 summer programs these students would continue to live in the ignorant reality that has consumed them their entire lives. </p>

<p>And lastly, only 1/3 of the students accepted are minorities. At Harvard, for example, this reprents a pool of about 650 students. Now, assuming that all minorities are undeserving (which is completely untrue), YOU would only be affected by affirmative action if you were in the top 650 out of all 18,000 denied students. Therefore:</p>

<p>If all minority students were undeserving, you would only be affected by affirmative action if you were in the top 3% of the denied pool. Given the quality of those rejected by Harvard, this is highly unlikely.</p>

<p>HAVE FUN!</p>

<p>P.S. I am white w/ a 2330 SAT & was rejected early from my 1st choice Ivy school.</p>

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I'm an average kid, i have 1930 SAT's, a 3.55 gpa, a little bit of EC's. I'm at a disadvantage; put me next to the next asian who has a 4.0 and 2300 SAT's

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<p>trying to put it into a different perspective...</p>

<p>I'm an average kid, i have 1930 SAT's, a 3.55 gpa, a little bit of EC's. I'm at a disadvantage; put me next to the [white guy] who has a 4.0 and 2300 SAT's</p>

<p>I'm an average kid, i have 1930 SAT's, a 3.55 gpa, a little bit of EC's. I'm at a disadvantage; put me next to the [black guy] who has a 4.0 and 2300 SAT's</p>

<p>I'm an average kid, i have 1930 SAT's, a 3.55 gpa, a little bit of EC's. I'm at a disadvantage; put me next to the [hispanic guy] who has a 4.0 and 2300 SAT's</p>

<p>I'm an average kid, i have 1930 SAT's, a 3.55 gpa, a little bit of EC's. I'm at a disadvantage; put me next to the [native american guy] who has a 4.0 and 2300 SAT's</p>

<p>I'm an average kid, i have 1930 SAT's, a 3.55 gpa, a little bit of EC's. I'm at a disadvantage; put me next to the [asian guy] who has a 4.0 and 2300 SAT's</p>

<p>in almost every case, the average kid with a 1930/3.55 is going to be at a disadvantage over the other kid with a 2300/4.0 regardless of race. you don't look worse because you're asian... or to put it differently, the minority kid with the 1930/3.55 doesn't look better because he/she is minority. </p>

<p>not supporting AA here, but i just wanted to point out that statistically (and probably qualitatively too), many of the minority applicants who get accepted are either at least on par with the rest of the accepted pool, and if not, only slightly lower statistically. the question about the fairness of AA resides in the situation when say, the averages are 3.9/2200 and you have two 3.83/2140 candidates, but one is URM and the other is not.</p>

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<p>"in almost every case, the average kid with a 1930/3.55 is going to be at a disadvantage over the other kid with a 2300/4.0 regardless of race. you don't look worse because you're asian... or to put it differently, the minority kid with the 1930/3.55 doesn't look better because he/she is minority. </p>

<p>not supporting AA here, but i just wanted to point out that statistically (and probably qualitatively too), many of the minority applicants who get accepted are either at least on par with the rest of the accepted pool, and if not, only slightly lower statistically. the question about the fairness of AA resides in the situation when say, the averages are 3.9/2200 and you have two 3.83/2140 candidates, but one is URM and the other is not."</p>

<p>youre going to tell me a URM with my same exact qualifications isn't going to be picked over me? please.</p>

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<p>we should address the source of the problem, which no one else has acknowledged here</p>

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we should address the source of the problem, which no one else has acknowledged here

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<p>Let a man first examine himself.</p>

<p>Instead of looking for someone to balme for your situation look at what you are doing to contirbute to your situation. If you have a a 1930/3.55 , what are you doing to improve your situation. Those are grades and scores that you got by your own work (or lack thereof).</p>

<p>Your ranting and raving about some type of "perceived injustice " you are facing does nothing to further your cause because at the end of the day you are the master of your ship and the captian of your fate.</p>

<p>You can act like Don Quixote tilting at windmills and express moral outrage all day. But at the end of the day the only person's situation you can control is your own. You can stay on this board can curse the darkness, go down in sack cloth ans ashes shouting Woe is Me, as you are doing now (and, BTW how's that working for you?) or you can light a candle. Work on improving your grades and raising your scores.</p>

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<p>For those of you who dislike AA: Stop *****ing</p>

<p>I live in a fairly rich suburb, but about 200 yards from the poorest city in America (Camden New Jersey)</p>

<p>A kid in Camden with a 1300 and Valedictorian had to go through ALOT more than the valedictorian of our class with a 1520. I dont know exact numbers, but only about 25% of an incoming Camden high school class graduates high school. If 3 quarters of your friends are dropping out f high school, its alot harder to stay in yourself, let aone graduate with a 1300.</p>

<p>That kid has the perseverance to do well at any school in America, and his background is more unique than most rich white kids. I dont know about other people here, but if I ran college admissions, Id rather have a that kid than a rich white kid from my school</p>

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<p>That being said, a black student who scores a 1450, 1500, 1550 is an incredible student who overcame a lot to make it to where they are</p>

<p>That is think is total bs. Color is totally immaterial. U mean TRADITIONALLY maybe.. but that is so not true otherwise.</p>

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<p>The way some of you guys talk you would think unqualified minorities were taking over the college system. Only about 30% of schools(I will try to find the site that said this) actually have a race conscious admissions process. The majority of schools do not use race as factor into admission. Even with affirmative action, most colleges are still pretty white/asian. The way I see it if you think that affrimative action is wrong, then be consistent and say all forms (legacy status, money donations, location, gender) should be excluded. I always see people focusing on race...so an so only got in because she is black...(I think I am going to hear from somebody in my life) it's never so and so got in beacuse he is male or because of legacy status. Leagcy status/money contributions are okay, but race is not...pleaseeee!!! I thought we were looking at merit...</p>

<p>College admissions seems to bring out the worst in people at my school. People who I thought were cool have another side to them that is rather ugly. I mean I have come in contact with outright hostility/resentment/ignorance from folks due to the fact that I am black. They believe that I will get into any school I want. Oh yeah, let me check that African-American/Black category and BLING automatic admission!!!</p>

<p>Another thing I notice is people put too much emphasis on the SAT score. I know the SAT is a factor in admission but colleges look at the total package, not just one aspect. They look for individuals who are motivated and will bring something to the college/university.</p>

<p>Sorry if there are any typos.</p>

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<p>AA is the worst thing ever. The president of my class (URM) scored didn't break 1200 on his SAT's...and his GPA is ~3.8. However, he is REALLY slow..he doesn't have any people skills..he gets nervous ALL the time...can't speak in public or 1on1 for that matter. Guess what? He got into Yale SCEA...and the valedictorian who's captain of hockey, tennis team and not a single grade below an A...and 1480 SAT's..got deferred? What ******** is that. Another kid who had 4.0 and 1520 got outright rejected....something is wrong. When he goes to Yale he's going to realize he doesn't belong there because he can't handle the work. He's going to have sleepless nights doing work and won't be able to finish. He won't be able to fit in with all the others who are actually smart...its not his environment. Thats what AA does...puts underqualified URM's in schools where they won't last...just because they don't want to come off as being racist. I'm not saying ALL URM's are dumb..just that in my example and I'm sure others...they won't handle the work.</p>

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When he goes to Yale he's going to realize he doesn't belong there because he can't handle the work. He's going to have sleepless nights doing work and won't be able to finish. He won't be able to fit in with all the others who are actually smart...its not his environment. Thats what AA does...puts underqualified URM's in schools where they won't last...just because they don't want to come off as being racist.

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<p>*Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. *- Abraham Lincoln</p>

<p>According to the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education: </p>

<p><a href="http://www.jbhe.com/features/45_student_grad_rates.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.jbhe.com/features/45_student_grad_rates.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Graduation rates play an important role in measuring the success of affirmative action programs. Many opponents of affirmative action assert, often without even looking at the actual data, that black student graduation rates are damaged by race-sensitive admissions. It is critical to review the statistics to see if this is true. For this reason, in this report we emphasize the graduation rates of black students at the nation's highest-ranked colleges and universities. Almost always these are the institutions that have the strongest commitment to race-sensitive admissions.</p>

<p>Academically selective institutions are almost always strongly committed to affirmative action in admissions, yet at the same time they tend to deliver a high black student graduation rate. Obviously, this undercuts the assertion made by many conservatives that black students admitted to our most prestigious colleges and universities under race-conscious admissions programs are incapable of competing with their white peers and should instead seek admissions at less academically rigorous schools. </p>

<p>Nearly 19 out of every 20 black students who enter the highly competitive academic environment of Harvard, Princeton, Haverford, and Amherst go on to earn their diplomas. Other academically demanding colleges do very well, although not as well as these four. </p>

<p>Sixteen other highly competitive colleges and universities turn in black student graduation rates of 85 percent or more. They are Wellesley College, Williams College, Brown University, Davidson College, Colgate University, Duke University, Northwestern University, Swarthmore College, Wesleyan University, Yale University, Georgetown University, Stanford University, Washington University, Dartmouth College, Columbia University, and the University of Virginia</p>

<p>The person in question stands an extremely good chance of graduating from Yale. If he is falling behind he will go probably go to the academic skills center just like his rich non-black counterparts.</p>

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<p>I totally agree with you. I'm Korean and I'm not super bright like the rest of my Asian/Korean friends (2300 SAT, 3.8 GPAs) and it really puts me to a disadvantage.</p>

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<p>Sybbie made a really good argument.</p>

<p>To all those who think that this country has overcome and that racism was "in the past"...I really have no comment on that. In a perfect world people would be treated equally, we would not need affrimative action but unfortunately that is not how the world is. People do get treated differently based on race in so many ways, from folks who automatically believe that asians are inherently intelligent to those who deny job opportunities to individuals if the name on the resume is too "ghetto". Race is big undercurrent in this country whether you want to believe it or not. I must admit it tickles me when white folks say that racism is not a significant problem anymore and hence AA is obsolete. I see AA not as a cure to problems regarding college admission/minorities but as some temporary solution. It is not perfect...nobody ever said it was, but what else do we have. I think going on merit alone would be wonderful if the playing field (public school system) was level. </p>

<p>Also, I think there is some confusion as to what AA is about. It is not about underqualified applcants-it is about similiarly qualified applicants...with preferential treatment given to the "minority"-the minority status could be gender, ethnicity, race, etc.</p>

<p>I mean really...college campuses full of white and asian students wearing birkenstocks...how boring lol!!!!</p>

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<p>The real problem here is the fact that there is really no one doing anything about it. There are at least 1000+ threads about this on this forum (literally) and I do agree - but if something is going to get done you really have to do it politically. These policies were made at a time of more necessity - however the "problem" now is more socioeconomic then anything else - and one could make the case that colleges have almost fixed that with all of the finantial aid programs. Without a major party behind this argument however don't expect anything to happen until one does. Sadly people as a whole are more concerned with argued-to-death issues like "abortion" etc etc.</p>

<p>Also parikhs, him being president of the class likely was the clincher. Of course him being a URM was a factor - but schools like Yale love to say they have xxx class presidents in the class of xxxx</p>

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AA is the worst thing ever. The president of my class (URM) scored didn't break 1200 on his SAT's...and his GPA is ~3.8. However, he is REALLY slow..he doesn't have any people skills..he gets nervous ALL the time...can't speak in public or 1on1 for that matter. Guess what? He got into Yale SCEA...and the valedictorian who's captain of hockey, tennis team and not a single grade below an A...and 1480 SAT's..got deferred? What ******** is that. Another kid who had 4.0 and 1520 got outright rejected....something is wrong. When he goes to Yale he's going to realize he doesn't belong there because he can't handle the work. He's going to have sleepless nights doing work and won't be able to finish. He won't be able to fit in with all the others who are actually smart...its not his environment. Thats what AA does...puts underqualified URM's in schools where they won't last...just because they don't want to come off as being racist. I'm not saying ALL URM's are dumb..just that in my example and I'm sure others...they won't handle the work.

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<p>This is stupid for several reasons. The 1520 got rejected whereas the 1480 only got deferred. Obvioiusly there is something at work besides numbers even when AA isn't figured in.</p>

<p>As for the stupid black kid with the 3.8... Obviously he can handle a decent amount of work, even if he isn't a socialite or the best speaker. You're an ass. Why would he not be able to handle the work at Yale when he is obviously very near the same level of competance as the other two students?</p>

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<p>and it seems as if you dont even know his SAT/ GPA</p>

<p>a black girl in my school who was top 10% with a 1300 and a legacy got deerred from Penn ED</p>

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<p>He is a smart kid, I never said he was stupid. My point is, while it takes him hours on end to get work done...it takes those other two 1/3 the time. I'm afraid he might struggle at Yale, but hopefully he won't.</p>

<p>I apologize if I came off sounding like an ass...I didn't mean to...just stating that I believe the other two were more qualified from knowing them personally apart from stats. I've been in classes with them and they are outright intelligent.</p>