<p>I don't get it. How is a black person with a 1600 SAT better than white person with a 1600 SAT? Did the black person overcome more to get that score? Could the white person have done more?</p>
<p>That's not saying race doesn't exist, but that humans have far more common than they are different, which is what Mr. Pinker says too.</p>
<p>Melanin determines the color of your skin and is genetic. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin</a></p>
<p>Well, it's saying that race does not exist in any significant way. Meaning that it doesn't affect anything more than appearance. It isn't in that article, I think, but all humans have the exact same divergence in genes, something like 2 or .2 percent. That means between you and your brother, or you and an african, or you and a dead Russian tsar. That's what I was trying to say.</p>
<p>Hmm, I thought the purpose of AA's was to give people who grew up in poor/disadvantageous areas a second chance. So why use race and not socioeconomic factors? I think "Mrgentleman" brought that up already, but I didn't really follow your arguments...</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
I don't get it. How is a black person with a 1600 SAT better than white person with a 1600 SAT? Did the black person overcome more to get that score? Could the white person have done more?
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>I wouldn't say one is better than the other, but what is being discussed is that a black male w/ 1600 SAT can be consider a greater accomplishment because it is a much rarer occurance. It's no difference to the reaction to any other appraised underdog victory. A gold medal for a US Athlete at the Olympics is no biggie, but if Lichtenstein won a gold medal, WOW!!! Not to say which worked harder, or if the particular athletes came from similar backgrounds, but overall, one nation is at a severe disadvantage to the other.</p>
<p>I'm going to re-post this because I think some of you need to just silence and read for a few minutes before you comment:</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
All AA does is allow for URMS to become dependent on people to give them what they want. What the real solution is to give URMS the tools/infrastructure they need to take steps toward educational "equality", not spoon feed them like this.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>Exactly, Affirmative Action is a band aid that has been placed on top of a a constantly growing wound. And there are two problem here coming from the perspective of an URM:</p>
<p>1) That wound is growing more and more and the band aid is not healing it. You said it yourself, we should be giving them the tools/infrastructure they need to take steps toward educational "equality", particularly blacks, but that is problem #1... find me a leader of this nation who is ready to step forward and take on that task. </p>
<h1>2) Second issue, the bigger issue, for all of you who want to end affirmative action right now, tell what are you going to put over that wound once you remove the band aid? If you can't come up with a better plan and preparation to implement it, then I'd say you would be no greater a politician or decision maker than the ones we have now.</h1>
<p>Undoing nearly 400 years of economic and social dispairity is not an easy task and it doesn't look we have any alternatives arising, since the only power great enough to take on such a task would be the federal government, and there focus is definitely not on education, we have nothing else. So to those who suggest an end to affirmative action, removing the one solution that colleges have in place, no matter how limited or ineffective, without putting something else in place is no solution at all.</p>
<p>Nobody has said that it is a permanent or even perfect solution to the problem since it doesn't always work out perfectly but what can we do. Also, for the record I am not dependent on AA, I have confidence in my ability. The whole reason AA exists is due to the problems with the infrastructure...</p>
<p>"Thus, it should not be used to admit certain lazy people because their skin is darker."</p>
<p>Who are these certain lazy people...because I really want to know(if you would leave your lurking status). You really need to clarify this for me. I am all for merit when the system is equal...but it isn't. Could you truthfully say and believe that the American Public School system is fair and gives equal opportunity and hence all individuals can be judged based solely on merit??? I mean you seem like a hardcore merit person so I would be led to believe that whatever is in your application that is GPA/SAT/transcripts/essays
/EC is what you get. Personal factors should have no influence. I differ in that belief since I believe environment can have a large influence on an academic record. The hundreds of years of systematic racism is not going to be wiped out through some legal changes that happened about 50 years ago.Though I know Aeggie has brought up the housing argument before I think it has a lot of merit for the issue. The affects of systematic racism have resulted in housing/districting problems. Where you live affects what kind of school you go to. It affects how much money your schools recieve. It affects the quality of your education in instruction and resources. I mean if everyone is able to overcome their situation in the strive for education then why do parents want to send their children to certain schools? Why are some schools looked down upon? Where I live, one school with a better repuation is packed over capacity while a "less than stellar" school is under capacity. I won't only go on race but gender and socioeconomic status are factors as well. </p>
<p>Another thing I noticed about this topic...is it really accurate to compare blacks and asians? I realize that both groups encountered racism but I want to know specifically the general level of education of asians when they came to this country. For instance, did they have a college degree? Any college education at all? I wonder if the more educated classes from Asian countries moved to to the United States? I tend to think that is the case...but again that is only the idea...</p>
<p>Sorry if there are any typos.</p>
<p>i do not think that AA is a bad thing in itself. What bothers me about it is that when one sees a successful black, he/she flags him "AA." Whern you get frustrated of a rejection, do not blame Blacks for it. OK? They aren't the one taking your places at top colleges. Hey people, many Black are working had to achieve their dreams. If you were Black, you'd know that "AA" doesn't make it easy for you as you think. "AA" is there just so that they'll say: we are helping them, see? We designed "AA" for them. But it isn't just true.</p>
<p>I agree.. If one black person entered into a protegious school, one would flag them down as AA.. which is sad.</p>
<p>But think about this: as my history teacher had said:</p>
<p>"If AA did not exist and university was totally blind to races, Extra activities, and sports, universities would be full of Asians and that would be it."</p>
<p>But....... why should race, gender etc. even feature in the app?
I have seen people call themselves HISPANICS cause they are related 4 generations ago... total crap</p>
<p>Frankly, the colleges are discriminating. In order to stop discriminition against minorities, they are discriminating against non-minorities who may be wayy better skilled. </p>
<p>As for being class president, thats no big deal. Eventually, the popular (but sometimes brainless) get elected and the quiet, obiedient (and sometimes very stupid too - as the genii like to participate in discussions etc. ) get nominated.. So.. the class president strikes me as another post about as useful as the body's appendix. </p>
<p>But what parikhs says makes sense.. if he finds them more intlligent and their stats are a level above - the only thing that would have mattered is this minority business - something that I totally disagree with</p>
<p>I feel that on the college site, one shuld enbter their name into a computer - one that is locked. The computer randomly assigns a PIN ID. This ID should be used on the app - no references to raceor the adcoms do not get to know their race (so long that the reco's dont give it away). After admitting, the PIN is corellated with the name and the student is admitted. No one should be ale to access the computer - until the admission decisions are released</p>
<p>I think that it is sad that people now decry the same system that opened the doors for them (or at least their parents). Asians tend to forget if it were not for AA they would not be in some of these colleges as before AA there was less than a 2% asian population in the schools where AA becomes such a hot button issue.. </p>
<p>If we went back he the "bad old days" there would be no blacks, no jews, no gays, women, no international students and college would go back to what it was before rich and white and overwhelming male .</p>
<p>Many people write that AA should be based on socioeconomic status, not realizing that the whole financial aid structure changed along with the acts and laws giving access to more diverse populations being albe to attend college.</p>
<p>**1954 (Brown v. Board of Ed) ** </p>
<p>The College Scholarship Service (CSS) was founded by a cluster of 95 private colleges and universities located in the northeastern section of the country. This group developed a standard need analysis system to determine the financial need of student applicants. The system established criteria to measure college students and their families ability to contribute to their education based on family income and assets They developed a form to collect information from students and collected a fee from students for each college to which the information was sent.</p>
<p>The CSS need analysis system became the established method of allocating need-based aid.</p>
<p>1964 (the Civil Rights Act- the backbone for AA)
Title VI Guarantees equal protection for blacks in federally funded programs by prohibiting discrimination on the basis of race, color, or national origin in programs and activities that receive "federal financial assistance." Also promises protection to those facing undue harassment in public places such as university campuses.</p>
<p>The Economic Opportunity Act signed into law on August 20, 1964, by President Lyndon B. Johnson recognized that education was crucial to fight the nation's War on Poverty.</p>
<p>This legislation created the College Work-Study Program (now known as the Federal Work-Study Program) which gave federal funds to schools so they could provide needy students with part time employment opportunities while pursuing their college degree.</p>
<p>Although designed primarily to combat poverty wherever it existed in the United States, this act directly affected higher education in a number of ways. It not only involved colleges and universities in the administration and operation of such programs as Head Start, Upward Bound, Vista, and Job Corps, but also made available a combination work-study program for economically deprived college students, which later was transferred to the Office of Education</p>
<p>1972
Higher Education Amendments (Reauthorization)</p>
<p>The Higher EducationAmendments responded to the disparity of funding among institutions by creating in the Basic Opportunity Grant Program, known as the BEOG Program or "Basic Grant." This program is now known as the Federal Pell Grant Program.</p>
<p>Basic Grants were intended to serve as the "floor" or "foundation" of an undergraduate students financial aid package. Other financial aid, to theextent that it was available, would be added to the Basic Grant up to the limit of a students financial need.</p>
<p>Sybbie: good information you've found-- hope you didn't forget to quote anything. I will go further with what you've said. Asiatics forget that not only did AA helped their parents, but it is still helping their kids today. Not all Asians have rich parents, and for those in autarcy of the "Asian intelligentsia," AA is there.</p>
<p>This gem from page 3:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Affirmative action is illegal now, and became so only in the last few years.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>My god, someone call the Supreme Court. There musta been some major typos in the Michigan decision!</p>
<p>Hoedown,</p>
<p>First of all I want to say that I am a huge fan of your posting because you always give such sensible and practical advice . I also like how you use the forums to really educate people about the admissions process especially from a Uof M standpoint. (but are the going to listen to you :eek: ? )</p>
<p>Sybbie, people saying to go back to how it was before AA are misinformed. They just want a setting where race, sex, and any other seemingly irrelevant characteristic is not considered.</p>
<p>""If AA did not exist and university was totally blind to races, Extra activities, and sports, universities would be full of Asians and that would be it.""
So your advocacy for AA is due to Asian racism, or that you find something troubling with Asians. This sentiment is simply an exact repeat of the antisemitism of the 20's-60's, of the Jewish quotas, of the fear that colleges are becoming too 'Jewish.' Really, it was about the scions of the rich, usually WASPs, losing power. While antisemitism has become politically incorrect (and it helps that statistics do not separate Jews from white non-Jews, as Jews are almost exclusively white), anti-Asian sentiment has not. I am not Asian.</p>
<p>How has AA helped Asians?</p>
<p>By the way, statistically, if a white and black have equivalent statistics, say SAT scores, the white is better, due to issues of predictive validity. I can't explain well why (don't really know myself), but it has to do with the average of the group from which you come. Robert Kiltgard, in his "Choosing Elites," puts it at a half a standard deviation, corresponding to 100 points on the SAT. Another study claimed a 0.25-0.4 standard deviation, corresponding to a 50-80 point overprediction. Citations are from this website <a href="http://www.arthurhu.com/99/14/underpred.txt%5B/url%5D">http://www.arthurhu.com/99/14/underpred.txt</a>.
I read on one site, an analogy would be a hit and run accident by a taxicab, in a city where there are both blue and green taxicabs. The victim may say he thinks, but isn't sure, that it was a green taxi that hit him, but the probablility that that is true varies with the proportions of green and blue taxicabs. I don't know if this is apt.</p>
<p>please. AA doesnt help asians at all. where are you living?</p>
<p>Stupid. You're an embarassment firewalker. When someone cites several evidence sources at least take the time to read them and examine them for evidence before simply declaring it false. At least take the time to comprehend what your reading before condescending to the poster, who is quite a bit more respected than you on this board.</p>
<p>AA helped asians by getting your parents and earlier asian immigrants into college. Asians aren't magically smarter.</p>
<p>I'm an asian too, ok? I've never said that in that context so don't you twist other ppl's words around. I'm just quoting what my teacher had said and the less diversity that would be at universities. Geez, ***.</p>
<p>And...
Apprantly 50% of the reason why Asians have higher IQs are related to their genetics...:
<a href="http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-04/cdri-bai042505.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-04/cdri-bai042505.php</a></p>
<p>Although I should not base it on that one fact alone, asians tend to have higher IQ's than other races. (Although it's hard to determine "IQ" in the first place) so although I wouldn't call asians "magically" smarter than others it is true that they do have higher IQ's.. It would be just like many African Americans who are usually more physically talented (not always, I'm sorry if this offending anyone) than other races "sometimes..."</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think Asians, in general (and I'm Asian) are too obsessed with letters and numbers to define a person.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Agreed.</p>
<p>That's because that was the only way they could succeed. Nobody can argue with numbers, because 100 is always greater than 79, regardless of race. You can still see the old racist labels created by the white power structure in order to control those annoyingly mentally capable Asians: "Asians can only copy, never think for themselves", "Smart Asian men can't be our business/political leaders because they're too weak", etc. Asians also had an impressive history of ingenuity that rivalled the Europeans. The Chinese, being the oldest existing civilization today, practically invented everything. So they had to admit to themselves that these Asians were indeed mentally acute, but there had to be limitations in case they took over and reordered the hierarchy. Just like with blacks, and how their physical prowess had to be acknowledged (you simply can't ignore all the stud black athletes in sports) but at the expense of their intellect. And who's in the happy medium of all this, so blessed with both mental and physical gifts? Not too hot, not too cold, the old fairy tale went. Asians and blacks are simply foils for the white protagonists.</p>
<p>Of course, over time, these ethnic identities become so ingrained in society that they are blindly accepted as natural. Some people may even proudly embrace them, as they are desperate for any kind of distinction. It may even get to the point where not excelling in math and playing too many sports is betrayal to one's Asian heritage (the irony is that this sham heritage was imposed by others). It becomes a chicken-or-egg scenario: did the acadmically inclined Asian create his own image, or did the image create him? I tend to think it is the latter.</p>
<p>Anyway, we're talking about AA, right? We don't need another Asian *****ing about how his rightful place in Harvard was taken by some black guy. With a sub-2000 SAT score, you have little realistic shot at any Ivy League school, so blame the SAT, not blacks.</p>
<p>Anyway, we're talking about AA, right? We don't need another Asian *****ing about how his rightful place in Harvard was taken by some black guy. With a sub-2000 SAT score, you have little realistic shot at any Ivy League school, so blame the SAT, not blacks.</p>
<p>never **<strong><em>ed about my Harvard spot being taken away by a black guy, ive already been accepted into NYU, you *</em></strong>ing assclown</p>