<p>Frankly the school you go to doesn't matter....al that matters is how you do there, and where you are after you graduate</p>
<p>What are talking about "the school you go to doesn't matter"! The highschool someone attends is VERY important. I went to a highschool which did not have good parental support and did not have the best reputation in the city. The guidance counselors and the faculty was more concerend with trying to pass all the seniors than actually helping us get into good schools. There weren't that many advanced class because not enough students registered for them. and for the advanced class (A.P classes) there was only a handful. Get this, only me and my twin brother, out of the entire school, took the A.P. US history exam, and we were the only ones to take the AP Chem exam. Highschools with money, (a "rich" student body) are able to cater to the students more...Highschools do matter.</p>
<p>I was talking about colleges....and yeah actually it does matter...but within the top tier colleges...it doesn't really matter where you go as long as you do well</p>
<p>and for highschool...it actually really doesn't matter where you go...i went to highschool in southwest Va....we had horrible funding, and we weren't exactly all that "top notch." But if you work hard, do well, and deviate from the standards of the average student, you can go anywhere you want. This girl I know went to harvard from my second rate highschool...ofcourse she worked 20000 times harder than most everyone there but still.</p>
<p>btw my highschool offered what...only 8 AP classes? where we come from AP chem doesn't exist :p</p>
<p>btw...for those of you who actually put up a decent argument and disagreed with me...those of you who were coherent..and know politics...check it out for a sec. - that means everyone but vincent</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ceousa.org/pdfs/VAS%20Report.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.ceousa.org/pdfs/VAS%20Report.pdf</a></p>
<p>they [blacks] have the EXACT same opportunity as anyone else to make good grades and be active in their schools or communities...it's not like anyone is inhibiting them...</p>
<p>NO!!! Sorry but you are completely wrong. Open your eyes. If you have to come home from high school and work 20-40 hours a week to help your parents have enough money for the family, do you think you will have as much time to study?</p>
<p>"look at Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice, Barak Obama, Al Sharpton, Johnny Cochran...so on and so forth"</p>
<p>look at the percentage of whites to blacks in elected office, and come back and try to argue there's no racial inequality.</p>
<p>"there's no segregation"</p>
<p>WRONG, there is still de facto segregation.</p>
<p>"no unequal opportunity to go to a good public school"</p>
<p>WRONG!! It's not a coincidence that inner city schools are both worse and predominately non white.</p>
<p>"...the only thing holding back a majority of African Americans(and it's very sad) is financial stability."</p>
<p>Only financial stability, geez, what a small part of life...</p>
<p>you said:
"help them out with the money and let them excell and secure their future"
and then also this:
"do you know how many scholarships are offered to black students? how much financial aid you can recieve from top tier universities? look at UVa...they're increasing efforts to give extensive financial aid in larger sums to individuals who can't afford college."
are these contradictory?</p>
<p>So what about the lower class white male that has to come home and work 20-40 hours to help support his family?</p>
<p>There is NO formalized segregation....and furthermore, defacto in universities is nonexistent...check out that site i posted.</p>
<p>There is NOTHING that inhibits an African American from going to a good public school...NOTHING....you can go to any public school in the state in which you reside for FREE....and even if you go to an inner city school, African Americans have the SAME OPPORTUNITY to make good grades....furthermore...inner city schools don't get sufficient funding, because public school funding is not distributed directly by the state. It's handled by local governments...why do you think rural schools lag behind suburban schools? Inner city schools will, naturally, be worse off...they have tight bugets...roadway maintenence, police funding, fire department funding, emissions control for factories, mass transit, electricity generation, water supply....the city will look to those aspects that they consider more important....and sadly enough public education is at the bottom of their list.</p>
<p>And that's right...i said...help them out and give them money...and there are scholarships...look in to AccessUVa that's attempting to aid the financially deprived...they're making extensive efforts...although I would support a race based financial aid system with a certain income threshold. Point is...African Americans are NOT the only group that face poverty...how many people of Chinese decent on the West Coast are living without sufficient means of supporting themselves? and yet they get even less priority than whites in admissions?...how many whites barely have the financial means to maintain a stable household? ALOT...and they get NO preference...NONE ZIP ZILCH...Where I was going with this was...African Americans have the means to go to college, as long as they work up to their potential and make the grades. Needless to say, universities do ask whether you've been employed during highschool, and do give priority to those who have, indeed, worked several hours a week...that is NOT neglected...but no other group, besides maybe Hispanics, Native Americans, and CERTAIN SECTS of Asians recieve such racial priority.</p>
<p>The flaw in those arguments is that you make it as though African Americans are the only ones who face those hardships...and that is a sheer fallacy.</p>
<p>And although I disagree with most of you...(including vinny...although he doesn't support affirmative action....he has the wrong reasons and he's a moronic racist biggot..and what i'm about to say definately DOES NOT APPLY to him)...you all have brought up significant points, and I respect your views...</p>
<p>From CNN:
Children and most racial minorities again fared worse than the overall population in 2003, according to the Census report. The rate of child poverty rose to 17.6 percent from 16.7 percent in 2002 -- boosting the number of poor children to 12.9 million.</p>
<p>The poverty rate of of African Americans remained nearly twice the national rate, with 24.4 percent of blacks living below the poverty line in 2003, slightly higher from 24.1 percent a year earlier. </p>
<p>From JHBE</p>
<p>1,873 black students scored above a 1350 on the SAT (2003), fewer than 500 above 1450, fewer than 30 above 1500. The numbers were similar for ACT, and let's acknowledge that a bunch of those are cross-test takers like myself. Literally HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of whites and asians make these scores.</p>
<p>These fun facts didn't just happen to spring into existence, they are a result of years of cause and effect. Yes, slavery and Jim Crow might have been over sixty years ago (since that's just oodles of time to catch up) but the effects still linger. Historically people just don't bounce back that fast after years of discrimination and dehumanization, sorry to break it to you. After slavery, blacks tended to bond together into communities and due to those fun 'separate but equal' laws they got the short end of the stick in education, ignoring the fact that these disposessed people had barely any skills when they got flung on the streets and told it was 'freedom'. These communities also get conveniently zoned together so they dont' have as much voter power at election time, after we were done counting jelly beans or reciting the constitution that is. Yet all we get for this annoyance is AA, which means if I have exactly the same stats as a non-urm I MIGHT get in. Maybe. It's not exactly a sure fire guarantee, because the last time I checked I'm not at MIT. </p>
<p>This perpetual system also leads to a lack of black educational role models. Ok, so we've cited Colin Powell, Condie, Obama and all those wonderful exceptions. Now let me try for the other camp: George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Newton, Thomas Jefferson, Ford, Andrew Carnegie (couldn't resist), Lincoln, Rosalind Franklin, shall I go on? Whites have had years and years and years to build up a culture of success while we're just getting started. As I've said before, immigrants are a self-selecting group and last time I checked no other ethnic group got plucked from their shore, thrown in a boat and worked to death without at least a sliver of a hope that was 'the american dream'. Immigrants CHOOSE to come here; they may get discriminated against, yes, but no one made them come. No one fooled them or kidnapped them or brainwashed them, t hey bought the ticket and took their chances. </p>
<p>And thanks to AA we have these terrible 7% african american rates at top colleges and unis. How horrifying, I mean, that's like, what, 50-500 spots that could have gone to that 1600/800/800/800 violin player, what's his name again? So out of those 18k Princeton rejects, we could give about 50 of those spots back. Is it just me, or does that still leave a majority of rejects out in the cold? Oh well, I'm sure we'd be able to find someone else to blame...</p>
<p>And I only addressed african americans in this case because bitter and angry rejects seem to love pinning the bulls-eye on our backs and ours alone.</p>
<p>May I point out the bajillion articles a day about CS and other tech-oriented subjects recruiting women like all mad? Women are still the biggest benefitters from AA, but non-urm women seem to like to forget that part:P</p>
<p>Here's an article written by a Boston Globe columnist that will make you think... </p>
<p>The insult of flattering minorities
By Jeff Jacoby, 3/18/2004</p>
<p>THE AD IN USA Today wasn't headlined "For blacks and Hispanics, these kids are pretty smart" -- but it might as well have been. The full-page layout trumpeted the 32 college students selected as finalists in the American Advertising Federation's annual "Most Promising Minority Students Program." That program, the AAF says, "connects the advertising industry with the nation's top minority college seniors."</p>
<p>ADVERTISEMENT</p>
<p>In the world that affirmative action has made, there are rich rewards to be reaped from being designated a "top minority." The students featured in the ad were flown to New York for a long weekend, flattered at a Waldorf-Astoria awards luncheon, and introduced to recruiters and executives from leading media companies and ad agencies. They repeatedly heard themselves described as accomplished, talented, the best and the brightest. And presumably none of their hosts or sponsors was tactless enough to mention the gulf that separates the nation's "most promising minority students" from the nation's most promising students.</p>
<p>William F. Buckley once remarked, upon being told that Lillian Hellman was America's finest female playwright, that this was on the order of celebrating the tallest building in Wichita. Perhaps the 32 students hailed in the ad really are gifted whiz kids with a genius for advertising -- but when the competition excludes more than 70 percent of the field, how would one know?</p>
<p>It doesn't seem to have occurred to the American Advertising Federation or its corporate sponsors that it is insulting to tell a group of students that, for minorities, they are hot stuff. It doesn't seem to have occurred to the students, either. No wonder: They're winning at the game of racial double standards that for years has reinforced the stereotype of black and Hispanic inferiority -- the degrading myth that members of certain racial and ethnic groups can succeed only if the bar is lowered for them.</p>
<p>The ad industry's "most promising minority students" campaign is an example of what Yale law professor Stephen Carter, in "Reflections of an Affirmative Action Baby," called the "best black" syndrome.</p>
<p>"We are measured," he wrote, "by a different yardstick: first black, only black, best black. The best black syndrome is cut from the same cloth as the implicit and demeaning tokenism that often accompanies racial preferences: `Oh, we'll tolerate so-and-so at our hospital or in our firm or on our faculty, because she's the best black.' Not because she's the best-qualified candidate, but because she's the best-qualified black candidate. She can fill the black slot. And then the rest of the slots can be filled in the usual way: with the best-qualified candidates."</p>
<p>Once upon time it was racists who insisted that "nonwhite" was a synonym for "intellectually deficient." Today that attitude is promoted most emphatically by the defenders of affirmative action, a system rooted in the belief that blacks and certain other minorities can't hope to win if they have to compete on a level playing field. And so racial preferences are used to tilt the field in their favor: lower admissions standards at colleges and graduate schools, minority set-asides for government contracts, unofficial racial quotas to benefit those applying for jobs. Racial preferences are clearly a boon for some minorities -- particularly those from upper-middle-class families who know how to leverage them to get into a good school or land a good job or get in on a good investment. But they do no favors for minority groups as a whole. Preferences stigmatize them as less able than other Americans to stand on their own two feet. Many end up resenting those who believe they need such a crutch -- and resenting those who would take it away.</p>
<p>The notion that certain minorities are of a lower caliber than "real" Americans is as old as America itself. In 1753, Benjamin Franklin scorned the German immigrants then flooding into Pennsylvania. "Those who come hither," he claimed, "are generally of the most ignorant, stupid sort of their own nation."</p>
<p>A century and a half later, Francis Walker, the head of the Census Bureau (and later president of MIT), lamented that the immigrants of his day weren't nearly as impressive as the German immigrants of old. He disparaged the Poles, Italians, and Jews then surging in as "beaten men from beaten races," totally lacking in "the ideas and aptitudes such as belong to those who were descended from the tribes that met under the oak trees of old Germany to make laws and choose chiefs."</p>
<p>Fortunately, there was no affirmative action at the turn of the 20th century to give members of "beaten races" a leg up in the competition for education and jobs. They had to rise on their own merits if they were to overcome the stigma of inferiority -- and rise and overcome they did. Black and Hispanic Americans would rise and overcome as well if only they could be liberated from the condescending mind-set that thinks it's a compliment to tell a group of college seniors that they show great promise -- for minorities.</p>
<p>As much I want to disagree with that guy b/c it sounds supremistic and arrogant that they're are always going to be all whites who are better (and that isn't true they're would be all races but just less of others b/c that's how it is, b/c as far as this country has come from the 1970s, you can change completely in 30 years) but in a way I agree with that. I went to orientation for a 3-day program for minority students. They talked all day about wanting us to do our best and retaining us as students but I couldn't help but feel talked down to. I don't see why I need the extra help. Why don't white kids deserve it? It was just degrading.</p>
<p>I mean most of collegiete whites & asians have an educational cultural background but that isn't true for all. I came from a educationally-influenced background of a family of almost all teachers. You cant just judge one's experiences and background based on race. Their may be whites & asians who are the first in their families to go to college too. They should have a program for those who are the first to college maybe or something else b/c just grouping by race & not by actual experience ****es me off. But of course everyone has different experiences and it is just easier and more general to group by race so not really feasible.</p>
<p>The 3-day is still haunting me but I have an appointment with a graduate counselor who will help to guide me. And I don't want to see her anymore but I get threatening message that I will be ON MY OWN. Ummm okay like everyone else? I'm fine with that.</p>
<p>I agree with the idea of the article if not the way it is presented. I understand why they have types of things like this b/c Hispanics and Blacks are still underrepresented. You say that makes whites & asians work harder. No just b/c they may have better scores sometimes doesn't mean they work harder than the Hispanics & blacks who may have a little bit lower scores (but again this is going back to the whole experiences and socio-economic status thing and I won't go there now)</p>
<p>I got a 33 on my ACT and 4th in my class at an all-white school and I still had people tell me that I was getting scholarships and into college based on race. I hated it so I know how discrimination feels. So when you say that everything is fine and dandy, try stepping into a different person's shoes. Oh right you can't b/c most people are blind to a world that they can't understand. And that's the sad truth that seperates and causes so many problems of hate & ignorance in the world.</p>
<p>P.S. I also got into the Campus-wide Honors Program that didn't have a check-box for race (meaning that they don't care as long as you're the best) which only accepted 125 out of the 750 applicants out of a class of 7300. When I got that it was great and I got it over the only other guy who applied (he is white) who was one in rank below me and a way worse writer. I felt that day I acheived something on my own without anyone's help and no one could say anything about race b/c I work hard and somebody is finally noticing. (I got left out of a lot of opportunities b/c of racist people in my town.) So it wasn't a best Hispanic/black show, but a real triumph of me as a human not a race. That is the best feeling there is. Just thought I'd add that to show Hispanics can make into "the best of" type things but it isn't noticed b/c people would rather look at "best of Hispanic/black" type things and judge.</p>
<p>Just gonna make a quick comment cuz I gotta chem test in 2 hours and i forgot to study last night :p.....</p>
<p>Whites are no better than blacks, blacks no better than white, asians no better than white, whites no better than asian, etc. etc. so on and so forth. Biologically(aside from the small percentage of individuals with mental disabilities), we all have the same brain structure, we all have the capability to do well if we apply ourselves. I do realize African Americans have been opressed, and it has had some traumatizing effects, but there is still opportunity to succeed, and make your ancestors proud by achieving what they weren't allowed to....I'll have a more detailed response later!</p>
<p>I agree Illi...you got in on your own merit..but that doesn't prove that affirmative action within admissions doesn't make a difference. Now...even Asians are grossly underrepresented in the high reins of government and business...There are more blacks and Hispanics than there are Asians in government...how often do you see someone like me (a Pakistani Muslim) as a representative in Congress? Honestly, I don't know of any...there are a few that work in various executive agencies, but that's it. Now if you want to use the argument of underrepresentation, then it won't work, because Asians are underrepresented, yet we tend to make better test scores/GPA...</p>
<p>My hypothesis is...since whites have had a longer period of time to advance, they're overrepresented in the top positions. White males, in general, hold a majority of the seats in Congress and dominate CEO positions in Fortune 500s and other large businesses. Blacks have had a longer time than Asians, hence they're represented to a higher degree. Everything comes with time. A large proportion of Asians do not benefit from affirmative action, yet we're highly represented in universities/colleges.</p>
<p>Here In NY. we have AA but it is really for everybody. if you are black and ur family makes 40k a year and white and ur family makes 40 k a year. if everthing is the same. Then you will prestty much get the same amount.</p>
<p>other than that we have special programs like EOP. which cater to the blacks more than the whites.</p>
<p>Black Power</p>
<p>I think most colleges use AA for admission quotas based on race, but financial aid is need-based. There was a time that AA favored women, but as a mom of a white, middle-class daughter from New England, I can tell you that she needs top stats to get a foot in the door. (Right now it's tougher for a white female than white male to get into school due to the female majority in the population.)</p>
<p>The poor should get a leg-up, but that doesn't mean they deserve a seat in the finest educational institutions. My family was poor Irish and two generations worked in factories and trades, the next worked days and went to night school, the next (my generation) went to community colleges or states colleges with some transferring to universities to earn 4 year degrees. We worked our way into professions and supported ourselves. Now our kids are well-educated and applying to selective colleges. I'm sure my Irish immigrant great-great grandfather would rather have been attending Harvard instead of working as a plasterer (employment as listed on his naturalization papers), but that's the American way. Every generation, through hard work, can improve its standard of living from that of the former generation. We live in an era of instant gratification and entitlement and so many of our young people think they deserve what they have yet to earn. Why shouldn't MY daughter have the same chance as other 17 year olds who share her stats. She certainly won't get anything more than she deserves or earns on her own.</p>
<p>White women are at a disadvantage becosue they dont speak up.</p>
<p>In my speach class we went through some statistics in the beginning of the class.</p>
<p>Men in general are 80x more liekly to join in class discussion and to ask questions. </p>
<p>Women in General sit in class and just absorb the info.</p>
<p>Women from indian decent were almost as likly as makes to ask questions and participate</p>
<p>Asian women(china,japan. korea) from these countries were the quitest and Asian americans were 20x more likly to participate.</p>
<p>White women sit right in the middle and usually just sit there.</p>
<p>Going to a diverse school like NYIT where there is no clear majority and the NYU where it is mostly white(70%). i dont see many white females contributing.</p>
<p>As for black females. we didnt discuss them. But they are usually louder and more prone to voice there opinion than anybody else.</p>
<p>so if they dont add anything then , they are not going to be a plus for the school and its enviorment.</p>
<p>also asians in general will spend 40% more time studying than other races.</p>
<p>Baseballmom, my families story is similar. However you must remember that many of the things that you cited were barred from my family simply because of race. The insitutional barriers have been much steeper and have lasted much longer; some of these barriers to opportinutiy still exists today. We can't forget that. Being the descendant of an Irish Immigrant is NOT the same as being a descendant of American slavery.</p>
<p>Forgive the spelling.</p>
<p>red_dragone...you are my hero. That is some brilliant stuff.</p>
<p>We need to Understand that there will always be 1 class of people who the country will single out and hate and neglect.</p>
<p>Now it is pretty much blacks but Middle eastern people are starting to be phased in.</p>
<p>and Before blacks it was Italians.</p>
<p>It will always happen and change. Just all of us have only experienced Blacks because we were all born in the 80's.</p>
<p>So i say that if AA can adapt and change to societrys needs then it is good.</p>
<p>I just can't take it anymore....vincent...blacks were being discriminated against LONG before the vast majority of Italians came here in the late 19th Century. </p>
<p>You're idoicy it truly entertaining. Please keep posting!!!!! LMAO</p>
<p>baseballmom....quotas no longer exist...they were declared unconstitutional in Bakke v. University of California Regents</p>
<p>There is a Difference between being a Slave and being descriibated agaist.</p>
<p>There were a ton of Italians here and the were the **** of the white man.</p>
<p>Then in 1860's when Blacks became free. It changes.</p>
<p>Blacks werent descriminated againt because with no freefom they were no risk to the white man.</p>
<p>You ever here the saying.</p>
<p>Italians were the white mans Nigger before blacks became free.</p>
<p>yeah this is what I am talking about.</p>
<p>Then a few houndred years later everybody else came. Italians had real pride and belived they did everything better. The term "Italians do it better". which is why there were so many problems between the britsh, Irish and other european poeple agaist the Italians.</p>
<p>All for the same reasons we oppresed blacks. In fear they will take all jobs/</p>
<p>and even if Columbus wasent the first to find america, I think he was but whatever you think is true.</p>
<p>Woudlent this mean Italians were here in 1492.</p>
<p>Long before Blacks.</p>