<p>How is it that we have two of these topics going in the same forum at once?</p>
<p>Please, people, give it a rest. One is enough, and maybe if we let things simmer down a little, we'll see things with new eyes.</p>
<p>Yes, AA can be a pain in the behind. Yes, it can also be a boon to mankind. Great.</p>
<p>"Low income whites weren't artificially locked into a cycle of poverty due to the history of discrimination/racism in this country."</p>
<p>White European immigrants who immigrated to America at the turn of the 20th century were discriminated against. For awhile, Irish and Italians weren't even considered white. They were subjected to life in the slums and low-paying jobs. My grandfather had to begin working at a young age to support his younger brothers and sisters. He and his family had no easy life. </p>
<p>Nowadays, all white people are lumped into one racial sphere. They are all thought of as whites that have to be nice to minorities because their great-great-grandparents were slave owners. My great-great-grandparents lived in Ireland and were poor potato farmers like most of the Irish at the time. They had nothing to do with slavery, yet myself and people like me whose relatives were poor immigrants have to pay for the injustice of the slave-owning whites. </p>
<p>"How do you know that an Asian or a White wasn't let in just to make sure that there was x% of Asians or Whites at Harvard or any other competetive college this year? How do you know they didn't take the spot from a qualifeied black/hispanic?"</p>
<p>This would never happen, unless the white or Asian had $. There are many more Asian and White college applicants than black/hispanic, so it is highly unlikely that a white/asian kid would be accepted over a black/hispanic kid. If blacks/hispanics were rejected in place of whites/asians, why do they accept affirmative action? Duh! It helps them out.</p>
<p>"An argument for AA is to help those who are disadvantaged due to past discrimination/racism (low income blacks and Hispanics - those from affluent backgrounds are no longer "disadvantaged" and arguably shouldn't have a benefit solely on the basis of their race)."</p>
<p>The affluent minorities argumet against AA is very true. My half-black cousin who I spoke about before is an exapmle of this. AA doesn't just help the poor minorities. It gives preferential treatment to affluent mionrities, even accepting them over poorer whites. AA has deviated from its original purpose to the point where all it is merely a way to "cut in line" in college admissions.</p>
<p>FredFredBurger: A study showed that Asians would take up 80% of the spots of URMs if it were not for AA.</p>
<p>^^This is trure, but I believe that the 80% also included whites.</p>
<p>Personally, I can't comprehend why race is even a factor in admissions or job recruitment. If we really want "equality" and no "racism" then we need to stop encouraging it through AA. It should be entirely on your merit. There shouldn't be a "check of your race/ethnicity" on the sheet, because it doesn't change how good a student you are, your scores, your activities and your leadership, all of which are (in my opinion) key for admissions. The same thing goes for jobs, I understand that it's in place to prevent discrimination, but I would hope that our generation has been brought up like myself. </p>
<p>I'm white, but my parents taught me that the color of your skin doesn't matter, and so I've never understood the bias and bigotry exhibited by some. And I would hope as we grow up and enter the working world and eventually are the ones in power, that we would see each person as an invidividual and recognize their merit and dedication and talent, regardless of their skin. I live in Florida, so we have a lot more Hispanics than African-Americans (at least in my classes and the people I regularly interact with), and I would say at least half of my good friends are Hispanics. I see them in the same way as my white friends. </p>
<p>I agree wholeheartedly that the slavery and discrimination of American history was wrong, and I hope everyone here agrees with me. But, I'm sorry, I don't see how letting you get a job over a more deserving candidate is helping, it encourages complacency and it discourages those not in the minority groups. However, if you are an equally-talented and intelligent individual or higher I would give you the admissions slot or give you the job in a heartbeat, because you earned it and deserve it. </p>
<p>Just my two cents.</p>
<p>Just so everyone knows, the result of no AA would be Stuvyseant High School (I'm sure I misspelled that). This is not meant as a partial comment or anything, rather just to continue the debate.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I?ve said it before and I?ll say it again: all white people aren?t rich! There are many more working class whites who have blue-collar jobs than affluent whites who live in mansions and have fancy cars. These working class whites are always forgotten about in the AA debate because people buy into the stereotype that that all whites are well-to-do. Many whites are just as poor as the minorities in ghettos. Nonetheless, they are at a disadvantage compared to ghetto blacks because they don?t have AA on their side. So before Harvard starts admitting blacks from the ghetto, maybe it should also consider the blue-collar whites who don?t have the money to pay their way into college as the affluent whites do.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You are assuming that socioeconomic issues are of greater importance than racial ones. I disagree. If you were right, than any minority family with wealth could move into an all-white gated community and fit right in b/c they're all of equal wealth. But we all know this isn't the case. A poor white doesn't equal a poor black. I wish it did, but we all know it doesn't. At least with money, a poor family can reasonably dream of moving up on the social ladder; when it comes to race, you're stuck.</p>
<p>Oh, so you're saying that a school full of Asians is a bad thing? As a white person, I really wouldn't care. If a student earns their way in, it doesn't matter what race they are.</p>
<p>nbachris, affirmative action can do nothing to remove racial prejudices. It can only serve to enhance them.</p>
<p>"You are assuming that socioeconomic issues are of greater importance than racial ones."</p>
<p>Of course they do! Think about it, why was AA enacted in the first place: to help impoverished minorities get out of the ghettos and get into college and eventually get jobs. It was NOT intended to be merely a racial thing. It was meant to give minorities a boost after restricting their rights for so long, which caused them to sink below the poverty line as a whole. In modern times, there are more affluent minorities than the pre-civil rights era. These rich minorities shouldn't be entitled to AA. AA based on family income would make much more sense. It would both limit rich/legacy admissions and help out the poorer minorities and whites that aren't able to buy their SAT scores through prep-classes. After all, an argument used to support AA is that a 1200 SAT from a black student in the ghetto means more than a 1200 from a rich white kid from Beverly Hills. What about the trailer park white kid with the 1200? Where does he fit in with AA? Having economic AA would help out both the poor white and black kids. Wouldn't this make more sense? AA would be a much better system if it were based on wealth rather than race. However, economic AA is probably just another pipe-dream, along with world peace and a cure for the common cold.</p>
<p>i agree that affirmitive action is a little unfair, but im hispanic so HELLL YEAH</p>
<p>Aw, screw you. D:<</p>
<p>I was not saying an all Asian school was bad. I was not saying anything; I just offered an idea to debate.</p>
<p>"White European immigrants who immigrated to America at the turn of the 20th century were discriminated against. For awhile, Irish and Italians weren't even considered white. They were subjected to life in the slums and low-paying jobs. My grandfather had to begin working at a young age to support his younger brothers and sisters. He and his family had no easy life."</p>
<p>I'm well aware of that - but such white ethnic groups don't face the same types of discrimination and racial stereotypes that minorities such as blacks still face today (when was the last time a person of Irish descent was rejected for housing or followed around in a dept. store?).</p>
<p>As for Asian-Ams taking the spot of URMs at elite private universities if AA was done away with is not entirely accurate.</p>
<p>Currently, Asian-Ams are accepted at a LOWER rate than all other groups (see the disparity in the % of ths student body btwn Asian-Ams and Jewish-Ams - despite Asian-Ams having significantly larger nos - more than DOUBLE).</p>
<p>Jewish-Americans? - we can just call them Jews, you know. </p>
<p>"Currently, Asian-Ams are accepted at a LOWER rate than all other groups"
where are you getting your stats from?
Asian-Americans make up significant portions of major universities despite being a minority. Jews are an ORM, just like Asians. So I can understand Asian-Americans being accepted at a lower rate than Jews, but all other groups? no, I'd have to see your data.</p>
<p>The statistics have been posted numerous times on CC.</p>
<p>Anyway, here's an excerpt from an article.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Asian-American students faced by far the lowest admissions rates of any ethnic group (17.6 percent, compared with 23.8 percent for whites, 33.7 percent for blacks, and 26.8 percent for Hispanics). What's more, contrary to the Office of Civil Rights report from 1990, legacy and athletic preferences trimmed Asian-American enrollment by only a few percentage points. But if preferences based on race, legacy status, and athletic talent were all done away with, Asian-American enrollment would jump 40 percent (while white enrollment would drop by 1 percent).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Where's this 80% figure you folks were talking about?</p>
<p>"nbachris, affirmative action can do nothing to remove racial prejudices. It can only serve to enhance them."-- Nice statement, defend it.</p>
<p>If there is a URM at a top-notch school, what do you think? Did he/she get there solely on the merit of who they are? Or did their race get them in? Same thing with legacy admits.</p>
<p>Yes, it is true that my statement was rash and not thought out. But I still think that a policy that benefits certain races while it harms others enhances racial prejudices.</p>
<p>As long as white men are the hegemonic powers in this country, AA will always be necessary. As long as ANY specific gender and race maintain ownership over this country, AA will be necessary.</p>
<p>The only thing stupid is people trying their hardest to disprove the relevance of AA.</p>