<p>How do you define who needs the most help? Most universities will give aid to those with financial need. And, in fact, most universities do not take into consideration a prospective applicant’s ability to pay.</p>
<p>Therefore, why should any group of people receive preferential treatment in admission?</p>
<p>i’m just saying AA should be about considering people’s circumstances. for example, someone from a poorer background should get a little more leeway on things like standardized test scores since they may not have the money for a prep class and their high school may not be good enough to prepare them well. i think colleges already do this to a certain extent, considering a job a great EC for example. however, the poor still need a boost since the majority of college students are still upper-middle class, when all economic classes should be equally represented at colleges. (no exactly equally of course, like not just filling quotas for each group, but it should be a lot more equal than it is now)</p>
<p>@ smwhtslghtlydzed:</p>
<p>It should not be called affirmative action; it’s a misleading title. We already a system in which private universities will evaluate the conditions of your school academia and average family income and ultimately determine whether you are eligible.</p>
<p>It’s not like Princeton is going to deny a student in Harlem who’s only taken 2 APs total, while a student in Beverley Hills has taken 20 APs. Looking at it relatively, perhaps 2 APs in Harlem is simply outstanding, while everyone in Beverley Hills gets 30+ APs. Based on the same logic, the diligent student in Harlem would be accepted into Princeton.</p>
<p>I’m just trying to clarify the conversation. Affirmative action implies that any person, rich or poor, of a historically-disadvantaged people should be granted special privileges. Even if that person grew up in a filthy-rich neighborhood, s/he would still be “advantaged.”</p>
<p>It’s clearly unfair.</p>
<p>AGAIN: Affirmative action doesn’t distinguish between the rich and poor! It’s economic-blind, not color-blind.</p>
<p>I think that this argument is full of inaccuracies. As I have stated before, affirmative action has been debated enough, and quite frankly, it has been debated enough among people who have no idea what they are talking about. To say that someone who is a minority will be accepted with lower stats is absolutely wrong. To blame someone else for not getting into a school is childish, and your attitude is probably what kept you out of the school in the first place. If you are good, well-rounded, and your attitude doesn’t stink, you will get in. Test scores and GPAs don’t make a school, the students do. Minority students typically do fall within the accepted range at the competitive schools into which they are accepted. And fyi, minority students do not just include African-Americans, but Hispanics and Native Americans as well.</p>
<p>Using the logic of some of the posters, Hispanics should not receive AA because their parents chose to immigrate here, and Native Americans should not receive aid because they are more American than anyone else. Does this make sense to you? AA comes not from slavery, but the injustices that took place afterwards: from Jim Crow laws to the Civil Rights Movements and the racism found on many campuses towards all minority students in the 80s and the 90s. Thus, racism towards minorities of color is far more recent than some people on this board might like to acknowledge. </p>
<p>Finally…
GET OVER IT. MAybe if you were working on adding to your application or continuing to do your best to show your school how you are a good fit for them instead of bashing others on these message boards, your chances would be higher.</p>
<p>StarryEyes, you should then be ready to give affirmative action to Jews, as well. Anti-semitism is just as rampant as it has been in the past few decades. Many Jews are much more recent immigrants than those from Africa or Mexico, and Jews are even more of a minority than Hispanics, Asians, and Blacks.</p>
<p>So, where does it stop?</p>
<p>Remember that colleges don’t make choices for admission based on financial need. Therefore, a rich black student with all the wealthy privileges of life will be admitted over a poor white student whose family is on welfare. </p>
<p>Many groups of people experience prejudice, and the more we, as blacks, keep playing the victim card, the more we’re encouraging racism against ourselves.</p>
<p>^^ Who said anything about playing the victim card? I find it funny that this debate never seems to show up on hispanic or athletic boards. No one ever seems to point the finger at legacies either. You use the Jewish population as an example that does not apply to this debate. True, they experienced discrimination here in the U.S., but the institution of the Holocaust, as you previously mentioned, did not occur on American soil. If anything, I find that many of the African American students who seek to attend top schools are driven by our history as a people to succeed, and do not rely on it to make them better. No one “encourages” others to pick on them. That’s like me calling someone stupid because they didn’t know the right answer to a question. That is not fair, and it speaks more poorly of my character than anyone else’s. Many of the black leaders that you see today uplifting our community benefitted from AA at some point in their lives, and most of them will admit to this. They did not let others keep them back because of their race, despite the fact that many used AA to classify them as “unqualified beneficiaries of reverse discrimination”. </p>
<p>Also, some colleges do not have need-blind admissions, especially state schools and private schools such as Washington University in St. Louis.</p>
<p>What is so good about affirmative action is regardless of the arguments and hurt feelings on this board it will still continue to go on. What so many of you argue about is academic achievement over socio-economic background. A’s and B’s and test scores do not deem anyone to be smarter than another nor do they mean you are more deserving of passage into the elite instituitions of society. Affirmative action tries to level a playing field that would never be leveled if left up to many of you guys. You take AP classes buy ACT and SAT study guides you take classes to help you better prepare for every single exam and because you score high on these tests you feel as though you are smart. Many black and native american students are not given the same opportunities and will never be given those opportunities if affirmative action does not step in. Slavery, racism, discrimation and prejudice play a bigger role than white or asian people can see. Many believe that if you just pick up a book and study you can suceed and those who do not do this are lazy and not deserving. This mentality is what is wrong with America today. Apathetic citizens who do not understand anothers perspective. For hundreds of years white americans have gotten into schools, restaurants, hotels, parks, restrooms, movie theatres, houses, stores, malls and clubs just from the color of their skin. For hundreds of years blacks have been lynched, racially profiled, tricked and threatned out of opportunities and blocked from higher levels of education. We have been denied every opportunity and yet you complain when we get a leg up that you have gotten for years. Do not blame your ivy league or work rejections on affirmative action. Blacks and Native Americans make up less that 15 percent in Ivy League Institutions. White and then Asians make up the other 85 percent. Affirmative action has nothing to do with your shortcomings. White Americans have dominated this country since its beginnings and will continue to dominate this country. Get over yourselves it is our time now. Just like my ancestors were denied their chances of success and a better life so shall you be denied.</p>
<p>I will not bother to speak on African- Americans who are against affirmative action. Stupidity exist in every race and there are those few blacks who get to a higher level and wish to cut ties to those factors that contributed to their success. Their insecurities speak the volumes that I won’t bother to speak.</p>
<p>jmartin36, I have never read anything so insulting against blacks (yep, I’m one) in my life. You are precisely that close-minded individual you so fiercely criticize. What you’re really saying is that blacks don’t have the intellectual capabilities that others do, which is more dangerous than ANYTHING any other race could do or say against us. </p>
<p>Get over your slave mentality. It’s history.</p>
<p>^jazzpark (sorry it took me a while to respond I’ve been busy)</p>
<p>I am truly surprised and disappointed that you are black and see slavery as merely history. Although I’d like slavey to stay as merely history there is no denying the large influence it has had on the black community and American society(in terms of racism).
Seriously I don’t mind if you are against affirmative action but I do mind that you consider slavery as history that we need to get over. How can you truly understand the extent blacks have achieved without acknowledging slavery.
When you applied to college did you check black as your race?</p>
<p>Lol, after reading this argument, I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t mark down his race at all.</p>
<p>Read more carefully – I said slave mentality. The Israelites could not return to Israel until new generations of people were born because the people who had been slaves still had the slave “mentality.” Too many people today (whose parents and grandparents weren’t even slaves) will not rid themselves of that mentality. Racism isn’t dead, but dwelling on it only makes things worse.</p>
<p>No doubt whatsoever the history of slavery is vital to who we are. However, we are no longer slaves, and the sooner we start acting like people who deserve respect, we’ll get it. Saying that we can’t compete academically on our own is giving credibility to racism.</p>
<p>There is a story in USA about progress:</p>
<p>[A</a> time to reflect: Charting the quality of life for black Americans - USATODAY.com](<a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-21-black-history-month_N.htm]A”>http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-21-black-history-month_N.htm)</p>
<p>In 2009, 29% of us had “some college” compared with 26% of all Americans. Yet, only 19% earned at least undergrad degrees (or higher) compared to 30% of all Americans. What is holding us back from finishing college?</p>
<p>jmartin I COMPLETELY agree w/ you. The others are focusing so much on slavery when the real reason Affirmative Action was put in place and is continued today is solely because of racism and discrimination. President Kennedy put Affirmative Action in place because schools would not hire people of color…period. People like Barack Obama, Clarence Thomas and other Black achievers claimed to be beneficiaries of Affirmative Action not because they knew that they were doing worse than white students, but because they knew that without this executive order they wouldn’t have any shot at the top-tier colleges they attended, solely because of their skin color. </p>
<p>People who are against AA distort it as the government’s way to give “entitled people” amends, when it is really in place to maintain basic rights. Although many like to think that we are a moral society, and that racism is present only on the fringes, it cannot be doubted that if Affirmative Action is removed many institutions would regress to previous practices. If you look for studies on employment practices–an area that is subject to lesser regulation–you will find that little progress has been made. According to some studies, if I, as a black person, attended an Ivy and was a competing against a white person who attended a state school or LAC, the white student would have the edge even if we had similar stats. Some of you may say “wouldn’t you prefer a employee that wasn’t admitted under diversity programs”, but apparently employers didn’t prefer black candidates before AA, so why would I expect them to be making objective employment decisions with the removal of it again?</p>
<p>I’d like to reiterate the blacks are not the only beneficiaries of Affirmative Action. Blacks, Hispanics, Asians (more specifically south asians) and especially white women (probably one of the few reasons AA is still in place) benefit from Affirmative Action.</p>
<p>Emmele, this is 2011. Look at the above USA Today article I mentioned. More blacks than the general American population are entering college. Why aren’t we finishing? Regardless of how blacks were admitted, something is holding us back from graduating. So, what is it?</p>
<p>jazzpark I don’t have all the answers, but then again this was not the question I was answering to in my post. I will finish college, nothing is holding me back, and that goes for most of the other black students that I know. But speaking generally, what may be holding many blacks back once they enter college is inadequate support, finances, and sometimes academics. Lack of resources and knowledge from people who have gone through the college admissions experience and college life can really hold back a student. But countless studies have proven that black students whether they are “affirmative action admits” or not increase their IQs at rate four times greater than other students in college. And at most top tier universities black students have graduation rates at or ABOVE white students.</p>
<p>Emmele, you were speaking about AA of the 1960s. Do you feel that the situation is no different today?</p>
<p>My point is that AA got us into universities, but it doesn’t seem to positively affect graduation rates.</p>
<p>I’m not saying that the situation is completely the same, but discriminative employment practices and everyday events show that the situation isn’t completely different. Forty years may seem like a long time but it really isn’t when it comes to changing human behavior. </p>
<p>Read my previous post, I added to it right after you posted. Again graduation rates may not be high, but you have to look at it relative to the overall american graduation rate (which also isn’t very high) and adjust for different factors such as poverty and parental education attainment.</p>
<p>You should have written a new post because you changed your argument.</p>
<p>The fact remains that the percentage of blacks do not graduate college at the same level as the general population. If you’re saying that the reason is poverty and parent education, then you’re just arguing that we weren’t college material at all, regardless of the fact that many non-blacks from poverty have problems as well. </p>
<p>Maybe MLK jr was wrong about the dream.</p>
<p>JMartin’s statement that “Just like my ancestors were denied their chances of success and a better life so shall you be denied,” has nothing whatsoever to do with equality and everything to do with vengeance, ignorance, and arrogance. Those are the people we don’t need in universities.</p>
<p>I never changed my argument. Read my post fully before making assumptions. How does recognizing the poverty in the black community translate to “we weren’t college material at all”. Don’t project your own thoughts onto me, because that is the last thing that I believe…</p>
<p>Money and education have an unique connection. If you don’t have the proper resources it will be very difficult to get an education and if you don’t have an education it will be very difficult to acquire resources. Racism, discrimination, slavery–and its effects on morale–have contributed to lack of economic stability among blacks… Its well documented that black are disproportionately more likely to be economically disadvantaged and its well documented that this can have a quite an effect on education.</p>
<p>You are coming from the frame of thought that believes that we all have equal opportunities and resources, which is simply not true.</p>