<p>Affirmative action IS THE WORST prejudice. Everyone should be treated exactly the same in admission processes. Being born as a smart african american shouldn't instantly catapult you to harvard. While being born as an equally smart asian gets barely gets you into a college 10 ranks lower.</p>
<p>zogoto,your example isn't thrilling. kid a was not the first person to get denied from Harvard with a 1600 and a billion aps. that's great, but a little boring at Harvard. I think kid b with the 4 years of varsity wrestling and 1500 sats is a unique candidate that is just as qualified for Harvard.</p>
<p>I would suggest that one be careful for what they ask for because they just might get it. When affirmative action began, Asians were some of the biggest benefactors at Berkley and the other UC's because they offered a free education. Because of affirmative action you have more females in male donimated fields such as engineering at other schools. Affirmative action has lead the charge for(the free education of students K-12 in the public school system, economic, geographic and social diversity as well as opening the door to the interantiaonal students in the college admissions process. </p>
<p>Since private schools are free to choose who they want into schools, if you think that if affirimative action is elimated how long do you think that it will take for all of the other initiatives or factors that stemmed from or are an expanision of AA to also be eliminated? </p>
<p>The result would probably be homogeneous groups of people (probably rich white men the way it was before) who can their checks for $160,000 each. (It would not necessarily mean that more asians will be admitted even if they have the scores the grades and the money, and that is one of the harsh realities)</p>
<p>For example: Amherst which requires supplemental essays has a question which I thinks sums up the issue. (However, based on some of the skewed responses to this thread, some people would have no idea of how to answer the question)</p>
<p>For me, diversity is not a political slogan or a theoretical goal; it is an absolute necessity. It is impossible for students from any particular background to engage fully the racial and ethnic dimensions of American culture in a setting that does not approximate the racial composition of the society as a whole.</p>
<p>From an essay published February 26, 2003, in the Chicago Sun-Times by Frederick E. Hoxie, Amherst Class of 1969,
Amherst trustee, Swalund Professor of History, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign</p>
<p>Harvard University, Brown University, The University Of Chicago, Dartmouth College, Duke University, The University Of Pennsylvania, Princeton University, And Yale University filed their brief with the U.S. supreme court in favor of Affirmative Action because they realize that we are not there yet and the playing field is not level in the admissions process. </p>
<p>They closed their brief by saying:</p>
<p>We are not so far removed from the days when segregation by race in education,
and race discrimination in all sorts of vital opportunities relevant to educational performance, were for many a matter of law.</p>
<p>The major points for affirmative action in their breifs are as follows:</p>
<p>These schools collectively stated</p>
<p>Academically selective universities have a compelling interest in ensuring that their student bodies incorporate the experiences and talents of the wide spectrum of racial and ethnic groups that make up our society. Amici should be free to compose a class that brings together many different kinds of students; that includes robust representation of students from different races and ethnicities; and that prepares graduates to work successfully in a diverse nation. Indeed, highly selective universities have long defined as one of their central missions the training of the nations business, government, academic, and professional leaders. By creating a broadly diverse class, amicis admissions policies help to assure that their graduates are well prepared to succeed in an increasingly complex and multi-racial society.</p>
<p>The colleges presented the following arguments</p>
<p>I- Consideration Of Race And Ethnicity In An Individualized Admissions Process Serves Compelling Interests.</p>
<p>A. There Is a Broad Consensus On The Important Educational Benefits of Diversity.
Diversity helps students confront perspectives other than their own and thus to think more rigorously and imaginatively; it helps students learn to relate better to people
from different backgrounds; it helps students become better citizens. The educational benefits of student diversity include the discovery that there is a broad range of viewpoint and experience within any given minority community as well as learning that certain imagined differences at times turn out to be only skin deep. It is surely fitting for universities to undertake to prepare their students to live and work in a global economy within a multiracial world. The challenges of contemporary life demand that students acquire not just traditional forms of knowledge regarding science and the arts, but also techniques of bridging differences in perspective and in personal experience.</p>
<p>B. Consideration of Race and Ethnicity Grows Naturally Out Of The Needs Of The Professions and Of American Business.</p>
<p>Every major profession in this country has sought greater diversity within its ranks.4 Businesses have demanded more minority managers and executives, as well as non-minorities who can work well with colleagues from diverse backgrounds.
Leading corporations, business groups, professional organizations, and executives have repeatedly called for consideration of race and ethnicity in university admissions.5 In
adopting their admissions policies, universities are responding to the clearly articulated needs of business and the professions for a healthier mix of well-educated leaders and practitioners from varied racial and ethnic backgrounds.</p>
<p>The Interest In Racial Diversity Cannot Be Served By Race-Neutral Reliance On Factors, Such As Economic Disadvantage, That Are Already Carefully Considered.</p>
<p>The United States urges (as one solution) that universities look to such factors as special economic hardship instead of race. See U.S. Grutter Br. 24-25. But the decisive fact
is that all of the suggested race-neutral factors, and many more besides, already enter into admissions decisions. Consideration of those factors alone does not achieve the distinctly racial diversity that amici seek in their student bodies. To accomplish that goal, admissions committees must give favorable consideration to minority race in addition to those other factors, not instead of them.</p>
<p>By deliberately tilting individual admissions toward hardship students in the hope of thereby selecting a large enough increment of minority students to make up for the
losses that would result from race-blind admissions would be disingenuous at best. Such an approach would in truth be a race based policy and not a race-neutral alternative at all. Indeed, such programs, if adopted to assure increased minority enrollment, would be based on race in a causal sense and would thus raise obvious constitutional questions of their own.</p>
<p>A race-neutral preference for economically disadvantaged students, for example, would admit many more whites than non-whites, because of sheer demographic realities.14 And, of course, the university interest in admitting minority students goes well beyond just admitting minority students from disadvantaged backgrounds.</p>
<p>Race-Conscious Admissions Programs Are Not Open- Ended Commitments.</p>
<p>The decision of a university as to which minority groups deserve favorable consideration in an individualized admissions process designed to foster such diverse representation, and the weight of such consideration, are necessarily and appropriately decisions to be made as a matter of educational judgment, taking into account both the universitys sense of its mission and its best estimate of the leadership needs it will address not as a matter of conflicting rights.</p>
<p>I'm asian and I wouldn't like it if asians got free trips to schools either.</p>
<p>EQUALITY FOR EVERYONE, AFFIRMATIVE ACTION SUCKS.</p>
<p>I didnotget to complete the sentence, I meant</p>
<p>education of students K-12 in the public school system who are not citizens of the U.S. as we are onlyone of a handful of countries that do so.</p>
<p>I go to a public school in North Carolina with mostly other white and asian kids (I'm African-American) and I just got ranked 1/192 kids in my grade. I'm applying to Phillips Academy, Exeter, and St. Paul's and without AA it would be impossible for me to apply. For centuries Hispanics and African-Americans have been put down, segregated, and enslaved. Just 40 years ago did we get complete rights and its going to take a while to level the playing field at Harvard, Yale, Duke, Princeton, UPenn, etc. Asian people are <strong><em>ing *</em></strong>ed off because now that they've progressed faster they don't want it anymore. When it was applyed to them no one had a problem, but now it doesn't apply to Whites and Asians. It wasn't fair for African-Americans to be enslaved and kidnapped from their homes for 400 years. It wasn't fair for Jews to die in the Holocaust. It wasn't fair minorities weren't given the same educational oppurtunities as Whites. I wasn't fair we have never had a minority president. I can go on and on. Now everyone wants to **ch and moan because the White and Asian people are getting a little taste of their own medicine. It's time for us to have a break and a chance in this country. We are taking it and the Ivy League and other elite schools are behind us. They want diversity. They want us. So just deal. :)</p>
<p>Being Hispanic is something that will help me with my college applications, but I really do think Affirmative Action needs to be reviewed. Basically what AA does is plainly state that African-Americans and Hispanics can't compete intellectually with Caucasians and I feel that I can. I may not be the most intelligent individual, or have the most impressive application, but I would like to think that when I do apply to college, I will be accepted based solely on based on my own merit and not based on the check next to "Hispanic" on my application.
I do realize many minorities have different sentiments concerning this and I am fully aware of why they feel that way, but in the end it comes down to personal commitment and dedication and I feel that my peers and I have worked hard enough to be on the same level. Right now I am trying to help other Hispanics by conferencing with some teachers at a local elementary school so I can try to set up a tutoring program to help other minorities because we need to build the foundation that will lead them to success. We cant continually give them incentives for being a minority because in the real world, you dont receive anything for the color of your skin. Just my thoughts.</p>
<p>For right now, I am for aa and I completely agree that diversity is essential in college campuses. But can't they look for diverse people instead of diverse skin colors? I mean, that's all it is, and all it should be- a skin color. Yea, you shouldn't be afraid to embrace your parent's cultures if you really have an affinity for it. But we should try our hardest to get rid of prejudice based on skin color, hair color, or whatever and start to see people as individuals. I just think the diversity argument is b.s. </p>
<p>esa, good for you, but maybe going to prep school will open your mind a little. if you stopped comparing different skin colors as if they were opposing teams there would be less racism in the world. and what's the point of bringing in slavery and the holocaust into the discussion, they don't really pertain to college admissions do they. </p>
<p>aa (should) be for accepting urm's who show potential but haven't pulled off the grades or the test scores due to lackluster education conditions or for urm's who have overcome such drawbacks. and hopefully, as Justice Sandra day o connor said, one day aa won't be necessary. it is inevitable that aa will one day be gone, but i'm afraid with the court about to shift powers that it might be eradiated too soon.</p>
<p>"AA does is plainly state that African-Americans and Hispanics can't compete intellectually with Caucasians and I feel that I can".</p>
<p>You are misinformed, what AA is if there are 2 similarly qualified candidates, that race can be used as a tip factor. </p>
<p>Most schools especially the Ivy and the Elite Lacs are not so hard pressed to accept students that they do not feel can be successful because it defeats the purpose and schools do not want people who will not be able to graduate. While African americans and Hispanics may get a little slack where SAT sores are concerned , they do not get any slack where grades are concerned.</p>
<p>All AA does is get your foot in the door, it is up to you what you do once you get in </p>
<p>If you click the following link</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ncaa.org/grad_rates/2003/d1/index.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.ncaa.org/grad_rates/2003/d1/index.html</a> </p>
<p>and various schools your will find that once hispanics get to the ivies they are able to hold their own as the graduation rate at the following Ivies are </p>
<p>96% at Harvard
89% at Yale
85% Penn
88% Dartmouth
94% Princeton
81 % Cornell
68% Columbia</p>
<p>where according to the U.S. Census, </p>
<p>The proportion of Hispanics born in the United States who had a
bachelor's degree or more (14 percent) was higher than that of those
born outside the country (9 percent). </p>
<p>which is a much higher graduation rate that those who may be going to their local colleges.</p>
<p>Esa, basically what you're doing by terming people, as in your fellow americans, as "the whites" and "the asians" is being entirely exclusive and (dare I say it?) racist. </p>
<p>I suppose you could make the argument that African Americans only received their rights forty years ago, but people like you aren't the ones suffering. Yes, Africans were sold into slavery 400 years ago, but were you one of them? And if you want to continue along the line of reparations, what about women's rights? We only received the right to vote eighty years ago - and I'm sure as heck not going to ask for any special treatment on my college applications just because I'm female.</p>
<p>AA was an appropriate idea at the time, but is now outdated. America's current problem exists among the impoverished - which is indiscriminate among races. I agree with whoever said that we are addressing the problem too late at the college level - if we truly wanted to help the underpriveleged, we would dedicate ourselves to children at the elementary stage. It is high time for this system to evolve.</p>
<p>I'm not being racist. I'm simply saying that not everything in life will be fair. Some view AA as fair others don't. It is not outdated otherwise at least 12% of every college would be made up of African-Americans such as the country's demographics. If it is so wrong why do you think Harvard, Yale, and Princeton all support it? Why do all the schools everyone on this site are obsessing about pro AA? Why, because the playing fields are not leveled? "People" are upset because no longer is college admissions favored towards their race or socioeconomic group. The tables have turned and will be that way until there is no such thing as underrepresented people. Simple as that.</p>
<p>Finally...alot of people AGREE WITH ME! :-D</p>
<p>i hate affirmative action. i am also a minority. sadly, an overrepresented minority. i am asian. </p>
<p>why i hate affirmative action:</p>
<p>why does it do? lets see, affirmative action sets minority 'quotas' that schools meet to look better and not be labeled as racist. good idea, now we can get minorities into good schools. bad idea, bad bad idea. minorities who are accepted to fill 'quotas', usually would not get into those schools had affirmative action not be implemented. thus, those minorities end up in the lower grade spectrum of students and are more likely to drop out or do bad things (suicide for example).</p>
<p>the world without affirmative action:</p>
<p>competition. as Darwin puts it, "survival of the fittest". you go to a school of your caliber based on your achievement ALONE. none of this 'this school seeks minorities' sh1t. im sick of it! you earn good grades, you go to good school. you earn bad grades, you go to a worse school. race or ethnicity should not even be an issue. you are qualified by what you have accomplished. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.</p>
<p>i better not have gotten into cornell due to affirmative action. i choose my highly academically competitive high school. i choose my academically challenging courses. i earned the grades. i did my work. i wrote my essays. i had a damn good interview. and i got in. </p>
<p>hard work b1tches, thats how it should be if you want to get anywhere in this place called life</p>
<p>Hear hear, ghost.</p>
<p>a school has 4 students.
1. black- 1280 sat 3.2 gpa ok ec's
2. asian- 1240 sat 3.1 gpa ok ecs
3. hispanic-1490 sat 3.0 gpa little ecs
4. white- 1500 sat, 3.9 gpa, great ecs
(and i know the app isnt just sat, ecs, and gpa...but for the sake of time..)</p>
<p>student 1 and 2 are rejected. the school must choose between 3 and 4. since they're apps are similar, but the school has less hispanics than whites, they chose the hispanic student who is JUST AS QUALIFIED. keep in mind they rejected the black student as well.</p>
<p>is this AA? and if it is, would anyone agree with this type of AA, where race is only used as a deciding factor if BOTH students are almost EQUALLY qualified?</p>
<p>i would because it is being used to create diveristy among EQUALLY qualified students. i wouldnt support it if student 1 and 3 were admitted just because of race and the fact the school feels they need to "meet a certain quota" of minority students.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I suppose you could make the argument that African Americans only received their rights forty years ago, but people like you aren't the ones suffering. And if you want to continue along the line of reparations, what about women's rights? We only received the right to vote eighty years ago - and I'm sure as heck not going to ask for any special treatment on my college applications just because I'm female.
[/quote]
-topper</p>
<p>i dont think being a slave and not having the right to vote was the same as being a woman and not having the right to vote. the right to vote didnt necessarily lower the oppurtunity for education for women (though it was more limited than mens). but african americans couldnt vote,get properly educated, get decent jobs...etc. so the whole "right to vote" thing doesnt really have anything to do with aa for women and as for african americans, that was just one of the many problems they suffered legally. </p>
<p>just my opinion...</p>
<p>Affirmative action is pretty lame, it's like taking good looking people instead of the majority average looking people. Race tells as much about a person as their looks. There are way many forms of diversity, I just don't think judging by race is a good idea at all.</p>
<p>oh no affirmative action discussion again!!! cue all the angry cc students...</p>
<p>w.t.f is leelee saying? </p>
<p>"it's like taking good looking people instead of the majority average looking people" w.t.f?!?</p>
<p>coqui: I was referring to the statement that esa made when saying that blacks only gained their rights forty years ago. He was specifying, I believe, the abolition of Jim Crow laws and the desegregation of schools (i.e. Brown vs. Board of Education) - all wonderful movements. You can make the argument that women were not, in fact receiving nearly as many rights as men before their right to vote was instated. I would even argue today that such discrimination prevails, though not consistently. Perhaps the analogy breaks down. How's this: just because I have some Indian heritage doesn't mean I'm going to harbor any resentment against the British for occupying my unwilling homeland in the late nineteenth/ early twentieth centuries. I specifically was not the one who suffered from it. </p>
<p>I personally would rather be judged by my own merit than any extra points that would be tacked on for the shade of my skin (oh, and by the way: Asians still benefit more from AA than whites do. ergo, I'm not arguing against AA because it's negatively impacting me). By perpetuating concepts such as AA, we're perpetuating a mindset of continual division between the races of America.</p>