Affirmative Action

<p>"Blacks, as a whole, don't want to and aren't driven to learn as much as their non-URM counterparts (compared to say Jewish or Asian people)."</p>

<p>That is a gross generalization that derives from your own ignorance. You've watched too much Fox News. Unless you're actually in the neighborhoods and school systems or observing black people as a whole, you shouldn't make such a statement. Also, can anyone show me statistical analysis that shows URM's overwhelmingly displacing whites at America's top institutions? Be real, most college campuses are 5% black at best. Don't blame AA if you don't get into your first choice of college. Finally, if URM's are viewed as " second class students" by their peers then I guess prejudice is still prevalent, all people are not viewed equally, and the judging of people by the content of their character is something often evoked but seldom followed.</p>

<p>vicks- many of my friends who are african american are a lot more anti-affirmative action than I am. They believe exactly what your quote says. I am more along your lines, but...</p>

<p>Maize-</p>

<p>The person in my example, or at least when I imagined it, was actually white. My point is that your individualistic 'you can lead a horse to water' example can lead to a very unwise look at things. I am against AA, but I believe we should give to educational programs for minorities in their k-12 years. Simply because minorities statistically have more people in jail and score lower on tests, and so need it more.</p>

<p>"It's very erroneous to reason off of this premise." Excuse me? Its erroneous to reason of the factual information that one quarter of all black males are in jail - most for drugs? That they score drastically less than white children? I think not.</p>

<p>So far, arguments for AA have been made on the notion that applicants who did not have the same opportunities as others should be given a boost. I am all for that, and I think it is a great thing that colleges are giving people from poorer areas to develop and excercise their potential. HOWEVER, I do not see ANY good reason why RACE has to be a factor. I will go back to the cliched rich black vs. poor white/asian scenario. Now, the rich black applicant most likely had much more resources and opportunities offered to him/her than the poor white/asian. Yet, based on the theory of AA, the rich black applicant will be given preference, simply because he or she is black. Race does not tell anything about the individual applicant; making assumptions about an applicant based on his or her race is clearly racism. I understand that the poor white/asian might get accepted over the rich black applicant because colleges look at other factors as well. But why should race be even considered? "Be real, most college campuses are 5% black at best. Don't blame AA if you don't get into your first choice of college." Yes, I agree, AA does not give URMs an overwhelming advantage and dramatically increase their representation in a college. But why should AA based based on race even be implemented in the first place? I</p>

<p>"But why should AA based based on race even be implemented in the first place?" </p>

<p>Because less than forty years ago, blacks and whites did not receieve equal opportunitites in academia. That is an underlying cause of the problems that exist today. If you have parents that receieved a lackluster education if that at all, then odds are they will be ill equipped to contribute to your educational development and promotion of it. Every student needs someone to motivate them from time to time and if your parents don't value education because of their lack of it, then neither will you. This is regardless of race. AA attempts to close the gaps caused by segregation and discrimination.</p>

<p>To me, AA isn't about righting the wrongs of the past. AA isn't about "leveling the playing field" or to overcome segregation/discrimination. I see AA as an attempt for colleges to create a diverse campus, a facet of AA that most people here on CC ignore for more loaded and rather debatable (but somehow generalized) topics, including:
* Slavery
* African Descent
* "Jim Crow" Laws
* Segregation</p>

<p>A diverse campus is part of a college experience. If you don't want that experience, don't apply.</p>

<p>I can tell most of you really are not in college. In college one thing you learn, is that when you say somthing, its best to be supported by FACTS. Heres a fact for you little pubesant high schoolers, the number one group that benefits from affirmative action is WOMAN. Think its so bad now? Didn't think so. Oh and how does being asian disqualify you from AA. Last time i checked asians were a minoirty. Anyways on that subject i dont care because the university of california has made it their policy not to accept anyone on racial back round. They do how ever give preferance to kids from under privalaged back rounds that do meet the criteria for admissions. That being said, the man who is currently about to retire who is on the UC board, who actually pushed for this policy to be implemented, ironicly is BLACK. Anyways i think its funny how all you east coast and midwest kids bicker about race this race that. Just try your hardest, hope for the best, and prepare for the worst. Sheesh.</p>

<p>I've said those things in prior posts, but thanks for reiterating those points croberts.</p>

<p>Please explain to this "pubesant" (its 'pubescent') teen how giving stuff to under-qualified woman makes any difference to this debate what so ever?</p>

<p>I believe that there can be some wiggle room. Clearly people from under-priveleged back grounds might have some reason for their scores not being as high. Clearly scores and GPA isn't everything about a person. However, to reiterate my point, there are people who get into schools who are minorities and who simply aren't as worthy as other applicants, but who got in because they are minorities. And I dont believe that is acceptable.</p>

<p>Dys2k6, add to the list that many African-American children who are applying for these schools come from SINGLE-PARENT HOMES. Black children are more likely than ANY OTHER GROUP IN THIS COUNTRY to live in single-parent, female-headed homes whether they are poor or rich. The history of racism by excluding black men from high-paying jobs and banning African-Americans from certain affluent, job-rich communities with restrictive racial covenants and redlining funnelled the depravation and deterioration of urban black communities where education inequality grew. Middle-class black families no matter how much they tried could not and do not hold the same wealth as whites in their class. Now where is the wealth and advantage in that?</p>

<p>Because white women have been the biggest benefactor of affirmative action in both the work place and educational areans.</p>

<p>When the deal really goes down the whole affirmative action/ some one is taking someone elses spot comes down to admissions to a hand ful of schools whee a majority of people are flocking to. Out of the over 3000 colleges in this country a large majority (outside of the Ivies, elite LACs. Cal, Stanford, MIT) are crying for a diverse workforce.</p>

<p>From what this whole arguement shows me that croroberts is correct because we operate in a global economy and if you really think that you are going far in this life it is beneficial for you to know all kins of people from all types of backgrounds.</p>

<p>It would really scare my to attend any university has has a student body with some of the ignorant group think that has been perpetuated in this particular thread. The only way to over come igonorance is through eduction that happens both inside and outside of the class room.</p>

<p>Let me preface this post by saying that I respect all races, so please attack the opinion and not the poster. </p>

<p>Now.... the only reason that most whites are against AA is b/c it doesn't include whites. Do you really believe that by applying socio- economic AA you'll feel better about being rejected from a school that YOU feel you should've gotten into? Just replace " Why should I be punished for being white?" with " Why should I be punished for being midle class?" Students like some of the posters on this board will still consider students admitted through this policy as "second class" and "not worthy of admisson". </p>

<p>If any of you cared about equality then there would be no talk of looking down on URM students and their worth. Unless of coure the supposedly unworthy student was white, then all would be fine b/c the poor need a boost and AA is okay now. Give me a break. </p>

<p>Unless you're a minority ( as I am), been judged b/c you're a minority ( as I have), been tailed through the mall by a rent-a- cop (as I have), or had your grandparents be told that the only thing a Mexican boy needs to know how to do is pick crops( as mine were told by the principal of the supposedly "public" school in Texas where they tried to enroll my father), then you will never know why AA is necessary. And I hope to God that I never attend a university where people will consider me an inferior student before they've spoken one word to me.</p>

<p>I agree fully with you Miguel. I think you've said it better than any of the other posters on this site.</p>

<p>"Unless of coure the supposedly unworthy student was white, then all would be fine b/c the poor need a boost and AA is okay now. Give me a break."</p>

<p>Okay, so it's fine for you to support AA because it helps minorities (as you are)? Practice what you preach, buddy.</p>

<p>miguel- I dont know how to begin.</p>

<p>People who argue what you argue dont understand our arguments. We dont believe that white people who are underqualified should get in. I firmly believe that ONLY QUALIFIED PEOPLE SHOULD BE ACCEPTED. The racism inflicted on you by a rent-a-cop has nothing to do with college admittances. If you are denied, and a less qualified student gets in, complain about racism. If you are denied admittance, and a more quallifed student gets in, how is that racism? How is that in any way related to that rent-a-cop?</p>

<p>I acknowledge that there has been incredible racism in this country. Incredible. And I acknowledge that people are under priveleged in this country. This is all obvious. What is not obvious to me is why we make our public schools horrible, and then make up for it by just giving people acceptances to college! Make education equal before college- then accept people who are qualified.</p>

<p>Project, are whites not still the majority of these colleges? It amazes me how anti-AA people will preach affirmative action is racist against whites, yet whites still make up the majority of these selective colleges! What about athletes, legacies, children of university employees or other celebrities that make up the pool and get into college as well? What makes you feel that you're "entitled" to be admitted into a certain college when that college might be looking for students they feel will fit into their school environment? They judge students by the whole overall package. Selective colleges do not practice meritocratic policies and won't for a long time.</p>

<p>For whites (and other groups) to bash race-based AA like these URMs are taking "their spots away" is simply ignorant and racist.</p>

<p>"What about athletes, legacies, children of university employees or other celebrities that make up the pool and get into college as well?"</p>

<p>I implore you to find where I said I supported those. Also, I must direct your attention to the topic of this thread, "Affirmative Action", not "All the unfair college admission practices".</p>

<p>"Project, are whites not still the majority of these colleges?"</p>

<p>Aren't whites the majority in the population? AA hasn't gotten so out of hand to make whites the minority in institutions, or else the immoral practice of AA would be abolished (as it should be)!</p>

<p>For those of you who support affirmative action, I strongly recommend "Affirmative Action Around The World" by Dr. Thomas Sowell.</p>

<p>The way affirmative action is practiced in the U.S. hurts rather than benefits.</p>

<p>All it does is basically say, "Hey! You were born black. Let's give you a boost because of that."</p>

<p>Is that equality? No.</p>

<p>Fabrizio, since when did blacks live and work on the same equal footing as whites?</p>

<p>But Project, you just admitted that there are OTHER unfair admissions practices in the college admissions process. Therefore, you can't solely only focus on URM admissions and ignore the bigger picture in how people are admitted into a school. If athletes and legacies, who have lower test scores on average, are admitted, what makes you feel that is "okay" but not "okay" to admit URMs? I smell a hypocrite.</p>

<p>The college admissions process is never fair, IMO. George W. Bush is a perfect example.</p>

<p>Wow, okay.</p>

<p>"If athletes and legacies, who have lower test scores on average, are admitted, what makes you feel that is "okay" but not "okay" to admit URMs? I smell a hypocrite."</p>

<p>AGAIN, I IMPLORE YOU to find where I said that they were "okay". Don't call me a hypocrite without facts, please, it makes you sound as you said earlier, "racist and ignorant".</p>