Affordable Cello performance for an unsure student

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>My rising senior has no idea what he wants to do in college or life, but music (similar to another poster) has been a part of his life since he started private cello at age 5. He's had some challenges along the way that I won't go into, so he's just coming into his own as a cellist.</p>

<p>He spent the summer working as a cellist (and drummer, ha!) for a local professional theater company. He was actually the only musician and he got to improv, arrange, and play. The director loved him and will write a LOR(and says he won't ever do another show without him) . He didn't get paid a whole lot but it was a huge growing experience for him.</p>

<p>He also just finished a 5 week chamber music program (local and very cheap) where he played some amazing and hard pieces and did very well. Several of the participants are alumni of his pre-professional strings and soloist ensemble and are current conservatory students. He has played a number of major cello concertos and is currently preparing some pieces in the event he uses them for auditions. His teacher feels he could be a professional cellist if he wanted to, and has suggested he look into music schools...but I know most are totally unaffordable.</p>

<p>He has only done one competition, but has worked as a cellist for pay for about four years, doing weddings, other gigs, and busking.</p>

<p>He has a good SAT of 2230, a good GPA 3.95/4.48, but he doesn't know if he's really ready for college or what he wants. He's explored game design and industrial design (and even engineering, but his math disability is seeming to make that an impossibility).</p>

<p>Right now, I am looking at local schools, San Diego State and UCSD, or possibly other California schools with music majors. If he could take a gap year, I think he would be open to schools farther away.</p>

<p>We are not well off nor do I think it's a good idea for him to take on a lot of debt as a music major.</p>

<p>Should we just stick with the local schools, which would basically be free because we qualify for Cal Grants and a little Pell Grant?</p>

<p>We know nothing about cello studies at any schools except that at SDSU, the cello teacher is the principal cellist of the San Diego Symphony, and that seems pretty cool.</p>

<p>He has never taken formal music theory but obviously can sight read well and has a good working knowledge, but definitely could use development in that area. He will likely be full time at the local community college this year (he's homeschooled) and has some flex in his spring schedule.</p>

<p>Any ideas for affordable schools either in California or ?? Any thoughts about just staying with the local state school?</p>

<p>Thanks a lot.</p>

2

<p>I am sorry I cannot tell you anything about affordable schools in California other than Colburn but that is a pretty difficult admit. I can share that cello is one of the most competitive instruments out there. Has his teacher had other students go on to conservatories and careers? He might try having some lessons with teachers at schools you are thinking of to see if he is at the level they are looking for. Many school have prescreens for cello that are early. Has he looked at cello rep. for auditions and is he already working on it? What does your s think he might want to do after school? </p>

3

<p>We have looked at the rep and it’s all stuff he’s done, though he hasn’t done every concerto recommended, by any means, but most places say things like, “Saint Saens, Haydn, Lalo or something comparative.” He has not done a Lalo concerto, but has done Saint Saens and Haydn.</p>

<p>I had no idea cello was one of the most competitive instruments. Maybe there just aren’t that many in our area. He will sit second chair and possibly first chair in his orchestra next year.</p>

<p>I honestly don’t know the stats of his teacher, but he’s been teaching for a very long time, and I do know he’s named former students as well known musicians, so I guess so.</p>

<p>My son doesn’t know what he wants to do. He is not one of those kids that has known since they were two that they wanted to be a cellist. It’s just that with each new experience, he gains more confidence and people notice him more. One thing he would not do would teach. He taught several cello students for a year or so and didn’t really enjoy it as he feels he’s not good with kids.</p>

<p>I just don’t know how to find programs that are good for cello; or do most big schools have good cello teachers/programs? What about small schools like LACs? </p>

<p>As an example of the kids that he played with this summer (and presumably, he’s close to their level), one is a violin performance major at Eastman and another is a viola student at San Francisco Conservatory. They are both alumni of his orchestra, so I know he’s in the general vicinity of being good enough…</p>

<p>But he’s still uncertain of what he wants to major in. I really don’t know how to advise him. Music seems risky…</p>

4

<p>All schools of music are potentially affordable. There’s no reason to rule out any of them in advance. There’s just no possible way of knowing what they will cost until all the offers are in, and the appeals are over. If he wants to go to a California public school - which, with his grades and your financial need, could well be more expensive than a private school - then he should look at UCLA and UC Santa Barbara, rather than UCSD. Possibly UC Irvine (jazz musicians go there, not sure about classical.) For the CSU’s - Long Beach, most certainly, then Northridge, Fullerton, LA, Humboldt and Chico. SDSU is not one of the schools one generally thinks of - it may have a good professor but what is the orchestra like and his peers? Maybe it’s great - but it’s not often mentioned. Private schools in the LA area one does hear about for music - Chapman and Redlands. USC would be in his range academically and would give him scholarships, but it is extremely competitive for music. He could try, though. Then he could take the route of getting a BA in music with a performance emphasis and apply to schools like Pomona, Stanford and Occidental. Definitely don’t be afraid to apply to a school with a big price tag - the wealthier the school the more likely it will be that it will end up cheaper for your son than a state school.</p>

<p>Up north there are fewer options for private with strong music departments. Until you get to University of Puget Sound which could be a very good fit. Definitely check it out. He would qualify for significant aid, and merit, too.</p>

<p>If you’re willing to look east from the coast - he could probably get significant aid at Arizona State - but the school of music is pretty competitive. Then there’s Lawrence University which might be a good fit. It’s hard for us to tell how good a cellist he is. If you think he’s competitive then look at Michigan, Indiana, Northwestern - all good schools which would reward him for his academics as well as his musical skills. Oberlin, CCM at Univ. of Cincinnati. There are so many choices.</p>

<p>Truthfully - the money is not your barrier - you can find a school you can afford, I promise. It’s whether or not he’s competitive on the cello for admission to some of the more selective schools.</p>

5

<p>Thank you, SpiritManager. That was very helpful. CSULB and Fullerton are on the list. UCLA has been a maybe and Stanford, while it sounds amazing, wouldn’t admit him. He’s not a super star. But yeah, a school like Stanford would throw a whole lot of money at a family in our income bracket.</p>

<p>I’ve been around music enough to know he has great potential to be a professional cellist but he is his own worst enemy. He is only now beginning to realize just how good he is, or could be, with dedicated and focused practice. It’s easy for him to practice for long periods of time, so that’s something.</p>

<p>Didn’t know about ASU’s school of music. We have looked at CSULB, SJSU and ASU for their Industrial Design programs.</p>

<p>Another question:</p>

<p>What do you think, if he really feels he’s not ready to commit to a particular major or program, of his taking a gap year and just focusing on music, and then applying to schools next fall? We have talked about his applying to schools this fall, taking a gap year and doing something like music, work, design, etc. But maybe it would be better to take the gap year before applying?? And then he can really see if he wants to do music.</p>

<p>He’s begin to fill out applications but is very, very uncertain of what he wants.</p>

<p>Last question:</p>

<p>How do you know you’re competitive if you don’t do competitions? Is it only kids who do competitions that are really good enough? I realize the audition is a competition, but are there ever musicians that don’t do other types of competitions, or should he be doing those? He almost did a big local one this year, but it conflicted with his robotics super regionals, and so he pulled out.</p>

<p>Does that indicate that he shouldn’t be a cellist if he doesn’t do competitions?</p>

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<p>No need to do competitions - that wasn’t what I meant by competitive - just how he stacks up in the pool of applicants. It sounds like most of what he’s done has been local, which makes it harder to judge. But certainly if he’s playing with conservatory level students and feels like they’re his peers, that says something.</p>

<p>As for a gap year, it sounds like it could be a great option for him. He could spend the year seriously applying himself to music. He could apply to the top level youth orchestra in your general area (i.e. maybe be willing to drive to the LA area once a week.) Is there a prep program he could do - such as at Colburn? And I second the idea of him having some sample lessons to get an evaluation from an outside source.</p>

<p>As for LAC’s - since he isn’t really sure at this point that he truly wants to focus on cello - they might be the way to go if he wants to apply right away. He could major in music and still get a great teacher. (Some LAC’s are more well known for music than others.) Vassar, Williams, Swarthmore, Bard just to toss off a few on the East Coast. In Southern California the Claremont Colleges have some solid adjunct music professors. Larger schools with BA’s such as Tufts, Brandeis, Emory. There really are many directions he could go. You might also look into Santa Clara. Not sure what the cello program is like there, but a friend just became the orchestra conductor there. And I know he’ll be doing interesting things. San Jose State does have a music program - I know some of the professors - it might be possible to double major in industrial design and music. (No idea but you could look into it.)</p>

<p>Really it’s wide open. Probably best for him to look at a wide range of schools, as you’re not entirely sure what he’ll want a year from now…</p>

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<p>The interesting thing about youth orchestras is that, as you know, they are just busting out of the seams with kids, they’re expensive, and I don’t know if they are worthwhile. (Ok, I guess they do train up some great kids) </p>

<p>Neither my oldest son, a violinist, nor this son, has ever joined the traditional youth symphonies. Instead, they both joined a free university symphony (which later became a community orchestra) when they were 12 and 13. And then they both auditioned for this pre-professional strings orchestra and soloist ensemble in their later high school years. Each member plays solos with the orchestra and they’ve played with professional choirs and opera companies. And yes, it’s a lot less expensive than the major youth symphony.</p>

<p>And actually, my son dropped out of the orchestra about 1 1/2 years ago due to his hearing loss. He couldn’t hear his cello. He had surgery and got a hearing aid, but his current strings orchestra is so much better, he’ll never go back to the other one, and he doesn’t need to wear his aid. I guess if he does join a full orchestra again, he’ll need to wear it for sure.</p>

<p>I do like the idea of taking lessons from other teachers for sample lessons. There was, a few years ago, a wonderful cello program at USC but he missed out on it and they didn’t have it last year. It would be great if they had it again because he would be more then ready. I’ll check into Colburn. He’s got a lesson tomorrow and he and his teacher can discuss some things since they are working on his audition repertoire. </p>

<p>Yes, I agree about the wide range of schools. We certainly have been considering a bunch of them. </p>

<p>Thanks for the encouragement and feedback on a gap year. We’ll continue to discuss.</p>

<p>Appreciate the thoughts!</p>

8

<p>I would be careful about limiting choices without investigating, whether music programs due to money or Stanford due to selectivity. There is no reason this young man should not apply to Stanford if he wants to, and he should include a music supplement with CD, resume, repertoire, and teacher recommendations (in addition to regular ones), The CD should reflect some talent of course :)</p>

<p>I like to post this essay a lot, which you and your son might like to read, about options for music study:
<a href=“http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/tips/doubledegree.html”>http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/conservatory/admissions/tips/doubledegree.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>It is okay to be unsure, and applying to different options can mean choice can be delayed until April of senior year. A lot can get clarified in that year. Options include BM in music, BA in music, BA in something else with music as an extracurricular, double degree, continued private lessons regardless etc.</p>

<p>If he is truly unsure and has other interests, it would seem that a university or liberal arts college might be better than a conservatory, or he can apply to schools like Oberlin, Bard, and Lawrence (and others) that have conservatories on campus, where a student can transfer from college to conservatory or vice versa, depending on being qualified.</p>

<p>Those are excellent scores and “stats.” I think he could make a decision based on size, location, academic and music offerings, price and general “vibe” and go from there. Research websites carefully. Nothing wrong with entering college undecided either…Some talented musicians attend a university, major in something else, and go on to grad school in music. But they continue lessons and very hard work and practice.</p>

<p>I would mainly let him know that life is flexible and he does not have to determine career path as yet, or even college major. Going to conservatory requires a certain drive and clarity and it is fine if he doesn’t have that yet. If he has options set up, by applying to a range of schools, BM and BA, then if he becomes certain he can still have that choice next April.</p>

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<p>I highly second the idea of sample lessons, or at the very least, find a teacher at a competitive program (ie hard to get into) and pay them for an evaluation. No offense meant to his primary teacher, but having someone who actively auditions students is invaluable, to know where the gaps are and so forth. It could be your son is competitive, but a gap year may be a good idea, with admissions to competitive music programs, you generally have to submit a pre screen recording by December 1st, then auditions are next year, so at the very least he has roughly 4 months or so to get the stuff required for the pre screen ready…a lot of music students do gap years, it is not uncommon, even really, really talented students can have audition results that disappoint them, so decide to do the gap year to make up what caused them to miss. </p>

<p>Another thought, don’t dismiss the idea that your S might be able to get into a school like Stanford. They like the ivies tend to be pretty good with aid, and one thing that I am almost rock solid sure of,programs like Stanford and the ivies look for talented musicians and it does give them an edge. Put it this way, they do look for diversity, and with all things equal the 2400 SAT,4.0 GPA, 8000 EC students might often get admitted, but the schools comparing someone who has done that to a kid who has been musically active (your S being a music student and have actually worked at it is a big +) I am pretty certain will give an edge to the music student. Put it this way, the graduates of the pre college program my son went to have a track record of sending kids to ivy and ivy class schools that would make most prep schools green with envy. So like others, don’t dismiss applying to places assuming he isn’t good enough, or that there won’t be enough aid, you really don’t know. All kinds of factors play into admissions and aid, an African American kid because they are so underrepresented in classical music will find pretty fertile ground if they are talented and apply to music programs, in some cases (ironically) a boy will have a better chance at admissions, given that schools are trying to maintain gender balances and such…so you never know. USC has a strong strings department, and don’t rule it out because you think it is too hard:). </p>

<p>I wouldn’t worry about competitions, they don’t mean bupkus in terms of admissions and they don’t necessarily give a very good view of how good someone is, for a variety of reasons, there are a ton of competitions, from bad to top level, and are often filled with kids whose idea of music is ‘winning’ or something like that, and quite honestly there has been a lot of discussion about competitions and how they are judged, with the upshot being it may not mean much, that there are kids who specialize in competitions who don’t get into the top music schools and so forth…it doesn’t mean competitions don’t have value, the preparation of a piece or pieces, having to go through the process of playing for the judges, is valuable practice, it is just the results that may not mean much. </p>

<p>There are a lot of options open to your son, in terms of whether to go for a performance degree and how to do that depends on where your son is, both in what he wants to do and also the level he is at. Cello because it is a solo instrument has among the highest levels of competition, along with piano and violin, and that competition is international (as it is in music across the board, but on the solo instruments even higher due to the emphasis on them in places like Asia), so knowing where your S is via an outside evaluation may be invaluable in that context. Once you have an assessment from someone who auditions students for admission and knows the levels, you can make decisions a little easier. This isn’t a knock on your S’s teacher, but unless he actively is out there and sees what is going on, knows the level of competition outside his own students or even locally, it is a good thing to have another set of ears. </p>

<p>The other thing to keep in mind is that the classical cello/orchestra/soloist/chamber route is not the only one, as your son has already found out, there is a lot of music outside classical, that either could be a supplement to or a totally different path (my wife keeps telling our son to graduate from conservatory, then play with an indie rock band <em>lol</em>).Verify where he is with his playing, and then make decisions from there, and don’t rule anything out automatically, you never know what is going to happen when you apply someplace, things you thought wouldn’t happen often do:)</p>

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<p>I second csulb. If it wasn’t so far away, id have my son audition there. My son is a late bloomer too. It takes awhile to figure it all out but the sample lessons and music school tours were so helpful figuring out what my son needed.</p>

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<p>I would also encourage your son to apply to Stanford (and maybe one or two other Ivy’s). Their financial aid is great!</p>

<p>We were pleasantly surprised when several of the music schools/conservatories upped our son’s financial aid offer to match what he was offered at an Ivy. Your son’s SAT is higher!</p>

<p>The most important thing though, is that your son has options to figure out what he truly wants. </p>

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<p>So appreciate all the advice! Wish I was going with my son to his lesson today but I have to work. I will tell him to talk with his teacher about the idea of getting an outside evaluation. He had talked about scheduling a lesson with the principle cellist of the symphony but that didn’t happen yet. Do you think we should try that? Or who would we look for? How does one set that up? I guess I can ask his teacher.</p>

<p>Last summer, he and a friend played rock cello duets (y’all know the 2Cellos, right? They played most of the rep from their first album and other stuff like Final Countdown and various pop tunes) as buskers and made some pretty decent money. Classical is something that challenges him, but the rock songs, especially 'cause he was the first cellist, challenged him, too.</p>

<p>If, and a big if, he did apply to a place like Stanford, what do you think about live auditions? SMU also is possibly on the list for a couple of majors, but I think it’s way more expensive to fly there. Flights to San Jose are inexpensive and my dad could probably help. Plus, he could see SJSU since they have Industrial Design. He said he’d be game for a live audition if I went with him. (He still has a thing about flying alone because of the screening at the airport and always getting flagged for wearing an insulin pump. I’m sure he’ll outgrown that soon…that’s my hope, at any rate)</p>

<p>Yes, we have some months to mull this over.</p>

<p>Oh, and we have even talked about possibly switching teachers, but it’s hard. He’s a friend and my son’s biggest advocate. He is a Suzuki teacher but obviously has taken my son well beyond that. It’s been in the back of my mind, but so hard to really think about it. Natural, though, to move on from a beloved teacher when you go to college.</p>

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<p>Your son would not audition for admission to schools like Stanford and the Ivies, or liberal arts BA programs, but could submit a supplement w/CD or video, and, as I wrote before, letters of rec., repertoire, resume, concert programs etc. </p>

<p>There would be audition for ensembles and orchestra once there however.</p>

<p>BM programs have auditions: conservatories and music schools, state universities w/performance programs and so on. I have seen a few BA programs with auditions but not at top academic schools, generally.</p>

<p>I believe conservatories have classes all day w/less academic work at “home”, which might be tiring. Someone else can chime in. Colleges can be just a few days/week or a few hours/day, with a lot of work outside of class.</p>

<p>There is nothing wrong with going to a college w/out a preplanned major and doing music privately and on the side. If he isn’t dedicated, himself, to the idea of a performance degree, I think a gap year would be a mistake. And if he still has other interests, like the design fields you named, I think a BA program at a college or university might suit him well.</p>

<p>My daughter has never had a problem with airports w/pump but to put his mind at ease you can call ahead of time.</p>

14

<p>I guess I should clarify in that Stanford allows students to do a live audition if they so choose, and apparently maybe SMU requires it for their performance program? I’d have to double check. But otherwise, yes, he has plans to record once he’s ready. And his resume and repertoire and finally updated. Ugh. That was a lot of work, but I figured out I could just look at all his old programs and get the info I needed. :-)</p>

<p>I know he’s not ready for a conservatory now. It does sounds tiring! Most of the programs we’ve looked at are BAs but Industrial Design at CSULB and SJSU are BS degrees, which probably don’t leave much time for other tphings.</p>

<p>Typically, he takes 3-4 classes a semester and then does two other activities. Last year, he did his orchestra and robotics. (He also does bowling league, but that’s just 2 hours a week and no other commitment). That’s all the activity he has energy for. Robotics was hugely time consuming, but he did well overall maintaining his cello gains.</p>

<p>And music is the one activity that he seems to be able to do for 4 hours a day…but all day? No, not yet.</p>

<p>Yeah, the airport thing-it’s just from one negative experience. He’s getting better about it. He traveled with his robotics team without us, and he was fine, but he was with his mentor, so that made it easier.</p>

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<p>@sbjdorlo you’re probably aware of this, but most music applications and prescreen recordings are due by December 1, so if he’s going to put in some of those, he should put them on the top of the pile, since he’ll have a few more weeks for the regular academic applications.</p>

16

<p>Yes, thank you for the reminder! I do have a little notebook with deadlines and such.</p>

<p>So his teacher thinks he should do Haydn rather than Boccherini for his concerto since he says that’s what is more common. My son likes the Boccherini better, but played the Haydn a while ago, which he’s still perfecting the Boccherini, so maybe that’s a smart decision. They picked out a Bach Suite and a Popper Etude. He’ll also play Julie-O. Not sure if that’s 15 minutes worth of music. One school mentions “excerpt from standard orchestral work”. What does that mean?</p>

<p>At least it’s a goal, even if my son doesn’t go through with anything. It’s good to have a goal, I think. And we have already contacted the accompanist he worked with before. Oh wait! I just remember I sent her the music to the Boccherini. :frowning: Ugh. Sigh. Darn.</p>

17

<p>Apologies on the Stanford info. I just looked at the site out of interest and as you say, they have two options, the live audition or the recording (video), but both are optional for admission. </p>

<p>The site also has this: "Our program is rooted in the Western classical tradition. However, courses in modern composition and theory and jazz theory and history are available as well. Students may also choose to concentrate in one of five areas: Performance; Composition; Conducting; Music History, Theory and Ethnography and Music, Science, and Technology (MST), should they wish to study any particular discipline in more depth.’</p>

<p>A performance strand is sometimes not offered at other schools (Harvard, Brown, are the ones I know best). A reminder for me to double check before making generalizations or assumptions about particular schools :)</p>

18

<p>One of the things you might do is have him contact the cello professors at some colleges in your area–Chapman, USC, etc. and see if he can get a lesson with them. This can help you evaluate many things–whether or not he wants to work with that teacher for four years, whether or not he likes the music school and it will help him to know if he is performing at the standard they are looking for. My S has done a few visits now with bass profs and it is extremely helpful. Instead of looking at a full on conservatory if he is unsure about the major, looking at colleges and university with good music programs would be a terrific idea. </p>

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<p>Santa Clara in San Jose? Just thought of that. We know a few folks who have taught there…Long Beach sounds wonderful based on some previous posters’ feedback here. Would Cal Arts offer any financial aid? Music and design made me think of it, but I don’t know much about it. UCSD grad composition program has strong ties to Oberlin and Harvard; not sure what that means for the undergrad performance program but it is tops in the area my daughter is in.</p>

<p>It seems as if it is really up to him. Performance and a focused application, or something less certain but more flexible and multifaceted. Again, he can cover all options with applications if he chooses to do that and decide in a year. Good luck!</p>

20

<p>How did your kids pick their pieces for audition? My son thinks he prefers the Boccherini, but his teacher said that the Haydn is more standard for auditions. My son also likes the Saint Saens but says there’s no cadenza.</p>

<p>What did your cello kids choose for their solos? And how? He’s practicing various concertos right now. Should he just take his teacher’s advice or should he play what he prefers?</p>

<p>momsings, we could do that, but I’m thinking it will have to be local-UCSD or SDSU-because he starts full time community college next week. He’ll have Fridays off, so it’s possible to visit Chapman since it’s probably an hour twenty away from us, but he’s not considering the school because of cost.</p>

<p>Yes, Cal Arts seems like a great school, but pretty sure it’s not a financially viable option.</p>

<p>My son did say he’d like any type of music program-modern or more classical-except jazz. UCSD tends to focus more on modern composers ala La Jolla Symphony, but that would be ok.</p>