Affordable Christian colleges?

College Search & Selection
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<p>Indeed, both Wheaton and Grove City are “highly competitive” generally speaking. But for significantly different reasons. Wheaton is generally considered the cadillac of Chrisitan colleges. They have a very diverse student body …color, geography, socio-economics, and more. They come from all over the world. MANY missionary children. And as noted earlier, it has a hefty price tag, right up there with virtually all other elite institutions.</p>

<p>Conversely, Grove City’s competitive posture (which leads to one signficant factor …a large, nearly all white, bright, and much more regional applicant pool) is a function of first and foremost pricetag. The hard fact, which if they were priced at a Wheaton or Taylor tag? They’d be way down the line as their pool would shrink dramatically. As Creekland has noted, they do very little recruiting, as they do not have to at their current pricetag.</p>

<p>Conversely, they award little FA, with the philosophy that everyone gets aid. The real message most don’t like to consider though is the inescapable truth that we all learn eventually. And most who are engaged, cannot and will not explore the “why’s” of that reality. But in the end, we get what we pay for. No free lunches. Hyundais and BMWs are very different vehicles, even though both will get you to the prom. As long as you don’t have an accident. Or wanna escort the prom queen.</p>

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<p>Whistle Pig and I have gone around and around on this issue of Grove City’s quality before. I have given a long post in another thread explaining how GCC “does it” (to which WP never responded). Suffice to say, Grove City gives what it promises–a great education at an affordable price in a Christian environment. If you want engineering, for example, you won’t get it AT ALL at Wheaton or Taylor. My son drove past Wheaton and Taylor to get to go to Grove City. He was not disappointed by the quality of education there. I don’t plan to revisit old arguments between WP and me, BUT whenever he denigrates GCC, I will attempt to respond, graciously but firmly, that GCC is not merely an adequate but a GREAT school. So are Wheaton and Taylor, but to suggest that GCC is a Hyundai while Taylor and Wheaton are BMWs is laughable. Check all the schools out that interest you. Some have large debt to service that raises their price tag. Others have a high price tag and then lower the price by giving grants and scholarships. Still others have a low price tag and don’t give out as much in grants and scholarships. There are lots of ways to do it. Going to any of the schools that I have mentioned will put a person in a great position to serve the Lord.</p>

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<p>Indeed, Scotty has opined his speculation about “how” GCC offers an allegedly cadillac education at a Hyundai sticker price. Without a single shred of evidence beyond his parental opinion.</p>

<p>And therein lies the problem of his contentions. He’s a fully invested parent of an obviously bright, capable GCC alumnus. What would you expect him to say? “GCC sucks! The only reason I pushed my son there …altho he was accepted at Wheaton, Taylor, Georgia Tech, etc …is because he saved me a ton a bucks. And after all, he got into a great grad school and is going gangbusters.” All of which merely illustrates a “computer model” …bright stuff in, bright stuff out. And perhaps a financial scenario that requires some complement … People don’t buy Hyundais because they think they’re great cars, at least in comparison to a BMW. They buy them for financial reasons.</p>

<p>btw, I’ve no vested interest whatsoever beyond one thing …wanting to know how the model works. Why? It makes zero sense and defies economic and academic logic to contend that GCC and let’s say Wheaton and Taylor of Geneva or Biola or …are somehow analogous. It’s an impossibility. </p>

<p>The evidence I’ve provided comes from the GCC catalog and the GCC website, the essence of which provides 2 compelling issues that lend insight to this issue:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>There are fewer faculty/staff teaching way more students. That’s a critical academic issue for a college portending such. Specifically, looking at the engineering department, there are a handful of profs teaching everything. Now, no problem with that as long as the consumer understands that it isn’t possible to provide a world-class engineering education with a lean staff and modest facilities. Doesn’t happen, won’t work.</p></li>
<li><p>The GCC catalog proclaims that one of the foundational tenants of the school is that it will build and maintain no virtual endowments. Why? Because it’s a Christian perspective. Again, no problem, even admirable. But what that means is there is no “hidden war chest.” And it is fully evidenced that the College literally had no development staff until the past 15 years or so. And that simply means there was virtually no effort prior to the recent modest campaign (by all modern standards of private quality institutions). </p></li>
</ol>

<p>So, I fully understand Scotty’s need to defend his major purchase, proclaiming a Hyundai looks great and runs like a top. And it’s a great “value” we can all agree.</p>

<p>But it ain’t a BMW or even a Ford Taurus. And it ain’t close to Wheaton. </p>

<p>Opine what you will, but there is only one way to know. And GCC ain’t telling.</p>

<p>Now, and HERE is the major modeling issue …IF GCC has somehow magically, miraculously figured how to offer a cadillac education at Hyundai price??? Why oh why, as a Christian institution, would they not be broadcasting that to the higher education world that either the charletains might be exposed …or the Boards of other Christian institutions might follow suit? So much for Christian mission, perhaps? And I see not a single institution trying to follow the GCC model on its own volition. Do you?</p>

<p>People are not stupid. But once you buy a Hyundai, you do need to “sell” it to yourself and to others, hoping they too will buy in and confirm that purchase. Again, no free lunch, and logic will prevail. Doesn’t mean Hyundai’s don’t sell. Sometimes that’s all I can afford.</p>

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<p>See my post #70 at:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/christian-colleges/559927-grove-city-college-vs-wheaton-5.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/christian-colleges/559927-grove-city-college-vs-wheaton-5.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>for answers to WP’s queries about Grove City College.</p>

<p>You will see that I give data, facts, and even attempt to footnote my info (as much as the limited word processing of CC allows). WP never responded to this post and in his post above keeps asking the same tired questions. I am not alone in giving WP good answers to his questions, but all respondents to his queries are met with ridicule and assertions that no “proof” is given. WP has a personal vendetta against Grove City College as the entire thread linked above will demonstrate. The fact that he resorts to the use of diminutive terms in addressing me is quite odd. A good psychologist might have some interesting insights into that.</p>

<p>WP makes a point of disparaging my interactions with GCC, suggesting that of course I like the school because I have already paid for the education of my son. This is at its core an attack on either my integrity or my intelligence. If I truly believed that GCC were an inferior education and continued to promote the school on this site, I would be lacking integrity, attempting to fool you readers into sending your children to this really bad school in order to make my investment look good. If GCC were an inferior education and I still believed it to rank highly (alongside Wheaton and Taylor, for example), then I would be lacking intelligence and need a sort of “pat the poor little misguided boy on the head” treatment, which, come to think of it, might be what that diminutive address is all about.</p>

<p>I fail to see how WP, who continues to assert no association with GCC, is a better judge of the quality of education there than a parent of a graduate. When people give WP facts and figures, he still insists on saying that no one has offered any facts. For WP, logic takes a holiday–anyone with experience with GCC is automatically a biased and disqualified witness, and anyone with facts and figures is ignored or dismissed out of hand. I note that this is not the approach that WP takes when discussing Denison or the USNA, schools where WP apparently does have personal experience. In those cases, of course, personal experience is quite important.</p>

<p>By the way, my GCC alum son is one of four Ph.D. students this year at Georgia Tech nominated for a graduate engineering student of the year award. He is representing the department of mechanical engineering. I guess that “Hyundai” undergraduate education wasn’t so bad. :)</p>

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<p>none that i am aware of</p>

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<p>Houghton in Western New York! Gorgeous campus and it gives away tons of scholarships.</p>

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<p>Scotty makes some interesting claims, mostly portending to be pertinent “facts” that determine the cost differential between GCC and Wheaton …$13K tuition vs. $27.6K, i.e. twice the cost. None are compelling, Most are silly, inaccurate, and/or simply of no connect. Thus not meriting response. However, to illustrate the above lets look at them.</p>

<ol>
<li> Scotty claims that a major factor(his #1 pt.) is that clerical, food, and maintenance workers may be paid less (6-8% less) do to cost of living in Grove City vs. Wheaton. Perhaps, perhaps not. But regardless of what the situation may be? It is like peeing in the pond of the Atlantic Ocean. Makes no real diff. It’s majoring in the minors, even if it were true. However, GCC is not a Mercer Co. college, nor is Wheaton a DeKalb Co. Both, and in fact, the CoL in PA is HIGHER than IL. PA is ranked 23 most expensive, IL 32. Check it out. But in any case …he does not know that. No info. That’s pure speculation that makes virtually no diff, even if were accurate. And it’s totally INACCURATE></li>
<li> The far more important and major issue is faculty costs. That is THE major expense. And there is not a college or university in the US that uses local cost of living to compare or adjust pay. U. Minnesota does not pay a higher wage than let’s say Michigan or Penn State, simply because it’s in Minneapolis and not Ann Arbor or State College. Prevailing wage is established, measured, and driven by national comparisons reported by agencies like AAU and other associations. Any and all schools desiring to compete for top quality faculty don’t ever try to suggest …”We’ll offer you 10% less because we’re Grove City and not Wheaton.” They’d be laughed at.<br></li>
<li> Now, does GCC pay less for its faculty than Wheaton? Of course. All one need do is look at their pedigrees. Wheaton plays a national game. GCC is not in that competition. Why? Pay is #1. Issue is …no tenure. None who have options would pick a place where they must work on annualized contracts over a lifetime appointment. Won’t happen. Ask any Harvard Ph.D. Ask any Michigan Ph.D. Ask any Stanford Ph.D. #3 Benefits are substantially below par. For example, until recent history, GCC had NO RETIREMENT for faculty. Enough on this. Anyone who reads gets the point.</li>
<li> Lastly on this point …let’s look at faculty student ratios a bit more indepth (and this is where the $$ is and isn’t) …Scotty notes GCC has 140 full time faculty vs. 198 for enrollments of 2,500 vs. 2,400. But what Scotty fails to reveal in making that point? Of the GCC, at least 29 are NON-TEACHING or de facto part timers. For example …GCC lists …the Pres, the Provost, the Chapel Dean (who also, btw, also coaches soccer and X country), 9 other coaches (all who teach phys ed!), vp for info services, dir of the Entrepreneurship program, the athletic director, field director for international education (who is also listed as one of the 8 profs in MECHANICAL ENGINEERING? Quite a combo …),the dean of arts and letters (also co-listed as a bus prof), dean for institutional assessment, etc. We get the point. The 140 is a grossly overstated and inaccurate figure. Probably close to 45-50% exaggeration. </li>
<li> btw, ALL of Wheaton’s faculty are full-time TEACHING faculty; none are administrators, PE instructors or coaches. Those are NOT faculty at Wheaton.
Also, at GCC, 3 depts of comp sci, ME, EE, Comp E …have total of 17 faculty, several of whom have additional responsibilities beyond teaching. A real issue for today’s engineering world.</li>
<li> Summarizing, what we see is a fulltime fac literally half the size of Wheatons who are compensated substantially less with zero security. In other words, GCC has about 100-110 real teachers vs. about 200 @ Wheaton. And GCC has 100 or so additonal students. In other words, student-teacher/advisor ratios are 2X as high at GCC …when looking at real faculty. And it’s a particular issue in highly specialized areas like engineering and comp sci. Doesn’t work very well. </li>
<li> Lastly, for now, he gives no information of the total issues …budgets, endowments, and categories of expenses. Light years difference So no real facts that count. So, we begin to see that Scotty’s need to defend his purchase is understandable. But in the end, it’s apples and oranges, Hyundais and BMWs … and has nothing to do w/ where they are. Silly. </li>
</ol>

<p>What this is about is measures of academic quality. Now, anyones can debate those, but again, I’m unaware of a single institution on the planet working to implement the “Grove City” model. Why? Because academicians, for better or otherwise, won’t buy it. It’s all about quality. </p>

<p>Enough. The point becomes rather understandable …unless one cannot afford to buy it.</p>

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<p>btw, in really attempting to analyze the cost and qualitative differentials evident in the Grove City model, it should be noted as well, that the College has the dubious distinction of being censured by the American Association of University Professors longer than any other college in US history. Since the early '60s. While there may be any number of reasons why …low pay for professors who are overworked, overstating full time faculty by padding the list with administrators, coaches, and other staff, poor benefits, etc. …
the reason for this on-going censure among U.S. profs is for the lack of academic freedom and apparent total lack of any security for professors absent tenure or other due process. </p>

<p>So nearly 50 years of being black-listed by America’s scholars can be interpreted in many ways, the essence in terms of student qualitative issues is that the best and brightest scholars would never consider working there. </p>

<p>The bottom line and pertinent issue for ones seeking to grasp the critical issues are simply to begin to understand that at least according to most traditional measures, there are very significant reasons and issues that expose why GCC’s tuition is so drastically below virtually every other institution. </p>

<p>Now Scotty, and no doubt many others might respond, “Who cares!” And in the end, it may not matter to persons in search of really understanding their purchases. And that’s ok. </p>

<p>But what isn’t ok is alleging or suggesting that Wheaton (and many other institutions) is somehow analogous to Grove City. They are totally different models of education.</p>

<p>The one strength that all of this does enable GCC to nurture is a substantial applicant pool of bright, white kids, most of whom come from a regional radius. And those kids remain bright, white and morally decent as they enter and as they graduate. But what must be recognized is that the GCC experience is significantly different than its competitors of Calvin, Hope, Wheaton, Taylor, Geneva, Messiah, Eastern, Biola, Westmont, Pepperdine and on and on. And even Hillsdale. And that student applicant pool, which in turn drives student selectivity, is generated exclusively on sticker price. It looks cheap.</p>

<p>And by many measures, it appears it may be. </p>

<p>One of the critical measures must be looking at things like …grad/med/law schools–where and how many? Rhodes, Truman, NIH, and other national scholarships won by those bright students? How many are being accepted into programs like Teach America? How many Christians of color are applying? Analyze the scholarly activity of the faculty?</p>

<p>One final thought about PR issues. GCC makes a huge to-do about being “independent.” And any who detest government intervention in the private affairs of people and institutions should applaud that stance. I do. But that is a 2 edged sword preventing GCC faculty and students from taking advantage of massive resources and opportunities because of its posture. And it’s important to recognize and identify what that stance “costs” students, parents in terms of funds and opportunities as well as what the benefits may be. GCC doesn’t articulate any of that in its materials, suggesting they cannot or will not? Why not? Again, it’s a choice, but not a free lunch. And it undoubtedly limits family access to federal assistance when it is tied to the institution. So again, merely important to recognize.</p>

<p>Ironically, Scotty’s crude and inaccurate analysis does in fact seem to point to the cost and qualitative differences. And what clearly seems to clearly illustrate that age-old, inescapable truth. We get what we pay for.</p>

<p>And most specifically, it’s simply inaccurate, untrue, perhaps self-delusion to proclaim that Kmart pricing provides Macy’s quality. Never, ever happens …and definitely not in this case. But hard questions require hard answers that are difficult to swallow, especially when it comes to our children.</p>

<p>btw, does anyone know? Does GCC still prevent students from walking on the grass? That’s one of the odder rules of life there, always seemed.</p>

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<p>May I suggest you take an advertising course at pretty much any college? I took one at my [secular] Alma mater and know your statement above is incredibly false. But then again, you and I probably don’t agree on much to be honest. If it fit any of my boys, I would definitely consider GCC. Graduates from there have gone on to do well and are well-respected.</p>

<p>BMW’s are overpriced. However, if one feels the name ups their image, I suppose they have their niche.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the suggestion. </p>

<p>In the end, none of yours chose GCC. You say “no fit” and that’s yours/their choice(s). And I’ve no doubt you’d be very comfortable to “consider” GCC for your children. They appear to disagree, from what you indicate were their choices. We could play “what if” till the cows come home, couldn’t we? I’d have been happy to consider Stanford for mine. They disagree w/ me. So what?</p>

<p>As noted time and time again, it is silly, naive, simplistic,misleading, and totally illogical and untrue to suggest that based on your rambling generalization …

</p>

<p>…Therefore, the college is somehow responsible? It would be just as silly and unprovable to suggest that no, GCC is not. Rather, it could be posited that GCC simply did little to deter, confuse, or “mess up” good, bright, white students (they all are, you know) who were going to succeed. Heck, Billy Graham went to a no-name junior college in FL and he became a real leader in his field, wouldn’t you say? (I know, he finished up at that little Wheaton College in IL.)</p>

<p>But you’ve made your point and that is the Wheaton’s (and apparently each of your children’s institutions) are over-priced and over-valued for their cachet …like BMWs. Right? Must be, because GCC is the blue-light special of higher ed marketing.</p>

<p>But here’s your assignment: Do tell us why you believe GCC provides a Wheatonian style education on the cheap? Your analysis will be interesting and insightful, I’m confident.</p>

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<p>WP has once again revealed that he has a personal vendetta against GCC. Why is he so apoplectic on the topic of GCC? And why does he insist on addressing me in a diminutive form? I can only conclude that it is because he knows that his own arguments hold no water and trying to belittle me is the only way he knows to deal with someone willing to stand up to him.</p>

<p>Nice try, WP, but just to go point by point to my arguments and merely assert different numbers as facts when I’ve given solid numbers as real facts (for example cost of living numbers of Mercer County vs Dupage County) is just another form of name calling. Note how many times WP uses the words “about” and “probably” in his analysis and then comes crashing home with his points as though they are established “facts.”</p>

<p>I leave it to our dear readers to discern what they will from WP’s diatribes. I am simply a person who wants to point people to consider a very fine school, Grove City College. Visit the school–you will see that the faculty numbers are not exaggerated. You will find great students. (BTW, the only student that I currently know personally at GCC is from Black Forest Academy in Germany–so much for WP’s knowledge of the present student body as a complete monolith of white middle class kids from Western PA.) You will see a gorgeous campus, designed by the same guy that designed Central Park.</p>

<p>Oops, that same guy (Frederick Law Olmsted) also designed the campus at Denison University, a school that WP treasures highly (also for very personal reasons). I’m not sure that WP wanted to know that. :)</p>

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</p>

<p>GCC does not have the major my oldest wanted (Community/International/Economic Development). His choices appear to have been limited to Covenant, Calvin, or Eastern. Of those, he applied to and was accepted at the first two. Eastern was too low academically for our taste. He’s going to Covenant because it was his first choice fit-wise. I suppose you think he ought to have gone to GCC or Wheaton to have made a point rather than get the degree he wanted?</p>

<p>My middle son, so far, wants medical research or pre-med. At this point he’s likely going to choose a secular school, but likes Covenant and will probably consider it a safety (85% acceptance rate into med school). GCC doesn’t have research. Wheaton doesn’t either. We’re not considering either. Covenant has a little, but nothing compared to secular schools.</p>

<p>My youngest is just entering high school. I haven’t asked him to commit to a life course yet. He may, or may not, wish to consider GCC. It will be up to him.</p>

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<p>Our out of pocket costs for Covenant (including room and board) - due to college based scholarships, work study, and locally won scholarships - is going to be almost less than we are paying for my middle son to take two courses at our local community college. We’re in an area that has to pay full price for the cc classes ($1500/semester for his two - of course, no room and board). His testing scores and extra curriculars, etc, were quite helpful. Why should we have paid more for Wheaton??? They don’t even have his major. Upon learning he was going to Covenant, one company he hopes to work for (microfinance) told him to remember them when it comes time for his internship. I think he’ll do just fine.</p>

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</p>

<p>You could say this about Wheaton and any Ivy - or any school that attracts top students. Why single out GCC other than for personal vendetta reasons?</p>

<p>You can pay extra for perceived prestige if you so desire (to each our own). Many colleges out there need people like you to support them.</p>

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<p>Scotty…a few thoughts.</p>

<ol>
<li>Please refrain from personal attacks. They don’t serve any purpose beyond making you feel better and distracting from the issues. But yours is the classic response when unable to refute the facts. (Watch our current President and his staff, if you need any confirmation of the strategy. An alien just tuning in would think George Bush is still president.) Stick to discussing GCC. And if you wish to discuss Denison or other institutions, I suggest going to those threads. Again your sole purpose is to distract from points you seem unable or willing to discuss.</li>
</ol>

<p>Remember you’re the one who brought up the disparity in GCC’s monumentally high student -faculty ration in your attempts to speculate (no facts beyond telling us the faculty numbers, which upon close examination expose one of the major reasons GCC seems to be able to sell its programs on the cheap-cheap. Again to summarize:</p>

<p>*Need to hire non-competitive faculty because of …
*low, non-competitive wage scale (as noted by the AAUP)
*no tenure or other due process to protect academic freedom and provide faculty security resulting in a now 50 year/half century censureship by the nation’s major association of college and university professors (conveniently not on the website or catalog; check it out – Wikipedia and other sources)
*a stated commitment to NOT provide endowment support to relieve family financial burden (on the website, in the catalog)
*when looking at the faculty numbers, revealing that the President, Provost, VPs and a whole bunch of others are deemed “full-time” faculty as you attempt to forecast cheap
*</p>

<p>No vendetta. Simply a unique model that merits closer examination. Why?</p>

<p>Well, that is the purpose of this site and thread, isn’t it. So, consider it like truth in lending. Or telling the truth when one goes to court. “The truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but.” So, if any information provided is not truth, refute it and back up your alleged facts with more than …telling us the janitorial staff makes less than Wheaton’s. I’m sure they do, but that has little and nothing to do to illustrate the point. Like peeing in the Atlantic.</p>

<p>And again, the final issue here that merits careful scrutiny of Grove City specificaally …once again that you’ve not consdidered …</p>

<p>If Grove City is the Christian college it portends, why does it fail to share openly all of its apparent unique ability to provide what some proclaim is a Wheaton/Ivy type educaton at a Hyundai price? </p>

<p>Why aren’t other Christian colleges flocking to mimic this model? </p>

<p>Why isn’t GCC, out of Christian calling working to evangelize the higher ed world with this “secret formula?”</p>

<p>Why would GCC include athletic coaches, administrative staff among its so-called “full time” teaching faculty?</p>

<p>Why doesn’t GCC inform its prospective students and family about its 50 year status as the longest-running censured institution …still! …by the nations professoriate?</p>

<p>Why doesn’t GCC, unlike virtually all other colleges, inform about student faculty ratios, average class sizes, its decision to NOT provide tenure to its teachers?</p>

<p>What IS the endowment?</p>

<p>What IS the college budget? </p>

<p>Why doesn’t GCC have any student research? (Maybe the college is afraid they’ll discover something? Be taught to think analytically? Asking and answering tought questions? Do you suppose, Scotty?;-))</p>

<p>There are many important, and unanswered questions that would be enormously helpful and go beyond mere cheerleading and need to defend one’s purchase. But Scotty, if you want to offer some productive information about your school, get us some validated answers. But please, no speculation nor personal attacks. Just facts. The CC world awaits. </p>

<p>btw, if you allege I provided inaccurate information, be specific. On faculty numbers and positions …I looked at the catalog. 29 positions of the likes of the President, AD, and deans who are listed as your “full-time” faculty. I’d say that’s fib, or at least false advertising. Wouldn’t you? </p>

<p>I looked at the catalog and website to discern info on endowment. It’s stated nowhere. No financial report listed. Check out the “History” on line to get some info about this one.</p>

<p>btw, you didn’t answer my most important question …Does GCC still disallow students from walking on the grass? A simple yes or no will suffice, thanks.</p>

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<p>Now. let’s hope that we can move this back to an educational forum, getting beyond the vendettas and personal attacks by the tag-team. Let’s look at this from a bit of a different perspective.</p>

<p>Let’s suppose we’re going to buy a major purchase and there there are 2 sales going on.</p>

<p>The first sale is peddling a bright, shiny new Hyundai on sale for the sticker price. $20K, no discounts. Cars on the lot look fabulous. And there are no salesmen bugging you because the pricetag is what it will cost. No dickering. Well, the cars look great, run great on the test run, and consumer report says people are satisfied with Hyundai.</p>

<p>The 2nd is BMW. And that lot also has a bunch of shiny, bright new vehicles. Cost is marked down to $40K, and prices may be negotiable. The cars are renowned for running well, fast, having sturdy bodies that don’t rust, and are safe in crash tests. </p>

<p>The only visible diff between the Hyundai and BMW is that one costs 2X as much. And what Consumer Report reports. One has great workmanship, will last, has great resale, and will be running like a top in 10 years. The other will work reasonably well for 50K miles and then will drop dramatically in value, require chronic maintenance, and it’ll be time to think about the next car. And don’t get in an accident. And the “reason” for the lower price is 2-fold …materials (one has foreign parts, thin metal, and no heated seats.) and mostly labor costs. One’s made in China and Korea; the other in Germany. </p>

<p>Both sales attract huge and totally disparate crowds, except for some of the Hyundai shoppers who want to find out if they can get a big discount and get the BMW. And some do. But neither sale entices the crowd from the other. Hyundai shoppers are looking for a good deal at a bargain-basement, blue light price, and they are buying them up while they last. The BMW folks are looking for a car that will be safe and last, as well as looking sharp, too. And they are willing to pay for quality.</p>

<p>In the end, both customers are satisfied they got their monies’ worth. The Hyundai owner got a good looking vehicle that worked fine for awhile. And when it was totaled in what should have been a minor, reparable accident, they went and bought another one. Thankfully, the children were not along as the backseat had been crushed.</p>

<p>The BMW owner had his vehicle with 250K some 15 years later, running like a top, and had some relatively minor damage in that same accident that totaled the Hyundai. </p>

<p>And both owners had wondered …“why would I ever buy a Hyundai?” …“Why would I ever buy a BMW?” </p>

<p>Until they read the Consumer Report. Until they had that accident. Until the Hyundai owner’s son had to pick up the BMW owner’s prom-queen daughter in his old man’s car. And until he had to drive that car to his interview for Harvard Med School and it broke down along the way. No worry though …his ex-prom-queen galfriend picked him up in her daddy’s now 20 year old BMW enroute to the Boston Classic Car Show where she would win the prize for coolest car. </p>

<p>Meanwhile back at the Hyundai owner ranch …the old man was rocking on the porch, proclaiming …“nothing wrong with them Hyundais. I’ve owned about 5 of 'em and when they’re shot, I just buy another one.”</p>

<p>Unfortunately, most only ever buy one college education, but the outcomes and the economic principles present in buying automobiles are precisely the same. We get precisely what we pay for.</p>

<p>But unlike buying a vehicle that costs half of what it’s perceived competitor runs, asking “Why does it cost so much less? hmmmm” …Some persuaded that cheap is just as good as expensive, will never, ever dare ask.</p>

<p>So what’s the real point? </p>

<p>It’s fine to buy a Hyundai, as long as one knows what they are buying. And that lesson too, is the same, in shopping for a college. </p>

<p>Conversely, the BMW takes genuine pride, rightly or wrongly, that everyone cannot own a BMW. While the Hyundai owner works to persuade others, “hey, mine’s just as good at half the cost.”</p>

<p>P.S. Scotty! What about the Grove City grass!!! And stick to the facts.</p>

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<p>I think all of us are well able to do this - whether we agree or disagree. :slight_smile: Our cheap vehicle (not a Hyundai though) is going strong at 200K miles with nothing other than normal wear and tear. I suppose those that spend more would like to think differently - and it’s their right to do so.</p>

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<p>WP can’t have it both ways. On the one hand, he attacks Creekland for NOT having a child at GCC. On the other hand, he attacks me for having a GCC graduate! According to WP, neither of us know anything, but WP’s reasons for our disqualification to attest to GCC’s greatness are complete contradictions.</p>

<p>He has spilled so many words (wow–what a plethora of words spill out on this topic–and this is so many more words than on any other topic in WP’s many posts) that his obvious vendetta is evident to all. My goal is accomplished–GCC is established as a great school, on par with Wheaton. Similar academics, similar student stats, similar outcomes for students. I feel sorry for WP that he is so emotional about these matters. Something clearly went wrong for him in relationship with GCC. If I knew the “why,” I know that I would be inclined to compassion for him.</p>

<p>Thanks to all for wading through this. Don’t let WP’s strangeness dissuade you from considering Grove City College.</p>

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<p>if you are open to Catholic schools, look at Christendom College and Ave Maria University</p>

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<p>scotty, please cease on the personal issues and stick to grove city. you chronically, consistently fail and/or refuse to talk about issues that might be of some value to those working to assess the realities of this campus. never any answers.</p>

<p>But fear not…a blogger who happens to be a GCC alumnus, answered the question of the grass and here it is along with some of his other observations:</p>

<p>RULES AND REGULATIONS: Grove City College is the college where you can walk on water but not on the grass. What this jokes about is that the Presbyterian heritage of the college promotes a feeling of religious “predetermination” and that, yes, it is ILLEGAL to walk on a certain portion of grass on campus. By walking on the Quad (yes it is a rectangular plot of land) you can be put on probation and on future offenses, sent home from school for 1 or 2 weeks or even expelled. For the sake of trying to keep this review as short as possible, most of the strange rules and facts are going to be outlined as briefly as possible. Remember, all of these are too far fetched to make up, they are all true: </p>

<p>The dorms are segregated. Men and women are separated and there is only visitation on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Friday is in the girls dorms 8PM-1PM, Sat in the boys dorms 8PM-2PM, and Sunday is YOUR PICK (yay.) 12PM to 5PM. Remember, some people who go to GCC actually PREFER this way. </p>

<p>If you break the segregation law, you are either put on probation or sent home. This includes your mother or father visiting you. If of the opposite sex, they may not enter the dorms unless during the specified times, and only if signed in. </p>

<p>There is a curfew for Freshmen. I believe it is 11PM on weekdays and Midnight on weekends. The times may have changed but the curfew is still in place. Again face probation or a trip home for repeat offenders. </p>

<p>You cannot live off campus unless you live with your parents or a legal guardian. You cannot get an apartment and live freely. You will either have to move on campus or face expulsion. </p>

<p>You may not be intoxicated while attending Grove City College, even if you are 21. If found intoxicated while on campus (they use several different breathilizers) you are sent home for 1 or 2 weeks, depending on the gravity of the offense. </p>

<p>If you are caught with empty alcohol containers in your room or caught in a room with alcohol, whether you are intoxicated or not, you can be sent home. If intoxicated, it is an automatic 1 week suspension, 2 weeks if you’re nasty. </p>

<p>Some of the epinions describe the cafeteria food as horrible. I have a personal friend who helped unload the food off the trucks into the cafeteria. It was labeled, “Grade C but edible” on the boxes. This is NOT a lie and truly upset me considering I found this out after I graduated. </p>

<p>Administration actually declared Nonalcoholic beer against school regulations because a housing group brought some NA beer into the cafeteria during Oktoberfest and had a really wierd um…Oktoberfest thing. True story. </p>

<p>If you become pregnant and are not married, you are politely asked to leave campus. If you do not leave, you are expelled. </p>

<p>If you receive federal grants for school, GCC will not have to accept them. GCC won a “landmark” case against the Federal Gov’t (Ted Kennedy was the residing opposition to this case) in which GCC was awarded the ability to refuse all federal funding in exchange for the ability to practice religious freedoms. What this means is that they do not have to conform to federal standards that require a certain percentage of minorities attend a particular school. Grove City College is privately funded and completely in the black (no debt). This gives them impunity in how they accept prospective students. Read the other epinion on GCC concerning the rebel flag. It describes the situation perfectly. </p>

<p>You must attend chapel. Chapel is a nice word for church. You are given chapel cards (20 per semester) and get to turn in a card with each visit. If you do not turn in all of your chapel cards, the college will even withhold your diploma. I’ve seen it happen. </p>

<p>You may not have a car on campus your freshman year. </p>

<p>In all honesty, the only rule I knew about before attending GCC was the separation of girls and boys in the dorms. All the others came as shock after shock. There are several more, I just can’t list them all. </p>

<p>STRANGE GOINGS ON:
Some really strange things happened at GCC while I was there. Here are a few of my favorites: </p>

<p>My Genetics Professor was a strict creationist. Although he taught a subject that relies on Darwinian evolution heavily, he argued with Niles Eldridge, a guest speaker on campus and one of the most famous scientists to further expand upon Darwin’s works. The argument of my Professor was that the Earth had to be only about 4,000 years old because that is what the Bible records in a span of time from generation to generation from Adam on forward. The lack of “transition fossils” means God made everything the way it was with NO evolution at all, and dinosaurs roamed the earth sometime before… well that can’t be explained well…However, carbon dating is way off according to creationists. I’m not choosing sides here, it was just really a strange debate…Poor Professor Eldridge could only shrug and dismiss the debate as trivial. I can’t blame him. I sat in awe and felt extremely ashamed at how he was treated. I later approached him and apologized for the strange debate and told him that many students were more open-minded and did not take such extreme views. But what to expect when your resume lists Oral Roberts University as your major focal point…Personal note: It was also very frustrating getting a skewed version in many classes because the subject matter clashed with religion. </p>

<p>A good friend placed a sign in his window stating “I hate God”. He was asked to remove it. He claimed this violated his civil rights. The college told him to remove it or go home. He took it down. </p>

<p>On more than one occasion, GCC went after an establishment or business for renting out space to college students where alcohol was served. Without getting too specific, one businessman had to threaten back with legal means to get GCC administration to back off and stop threatening to “run him out of town”. </p>

<p>The Dean of Men was demoted while I attended campus for botching the removal of more than one Fraternity Charter. It was so much like Animal House (the movie) with Fraternities being on “double secret probation” that it still scares me. Evidently, he was so hungry for blood, he handled more than one case unprofessionally and they demoted him with some strange title, like “Dean of Academic Liasons and Petitions” or something…hee hee. </p>

<p>And one more thing that is very important because it reflects the quality and nature of the faculty. The AAUP has censured GCC since 1963, essentially because they are so poorly paid and have no job security, a big issue as College history reveals.</p>

<p>"</p>

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<p>Again, Whistle Pig outdoes himself with words–this time quoting some frustrated alum from GCC from a posting on epinions from 2002! Now that’s a current and up to date version (and is anyone on epinions anymore except WP, who is stirring the earth to find anything bad to say about the school?). I note that WP did not quote from the many posters on epinions who had nothing but great things to say about the school or from the “disgruntled” posters, who were disgruntled because the school had become too Christian!</p>

<p>By the way, the walking on the grass was more of a fun thing than some serious offense when my son attended and is mostly ignored these days, as if WP were actually concerned about this. I’m sure that the Naval Academy likely has some “traditions” associated with it that only the initiated would appreciate, eh? </p>

<p>Get off the personal vendetta, Whistle. Why can you not accept that some folks have had a GREAT experience at Grove City and want to commend it to others? And, by the way, I love how you take it that I am the one with the personal attacks! :)</p>

<p>Again, if I knew what had happened in Whistle’s life to make him so angry at GCC, I know that I would feel compassion for him. As it is, I am simply perplexed . . . and will continue to refute him whenever he attacks this fine school.</p>

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<p>Duly noted. However, it’s also good if people/students know what the particulars of a school are prior to going so there is less disappointment once there. Should I mention that the secular U I went to a few moons ago (and an organization I joined within it - not Christian) also didn’t let us walk on the grass without penalty? I didn’t find out about that until after I had joined… I suppose I should post about it on some website? Nah. I just adjusted then and don’t need therapy for it yet.</p>

<p>ANY school I’ve googled has had negative as well as positive reviews. People/students should google their prospective school and reviews and read the good, bad, and ugly - then consider the source. WP appears to focus solely on the bad (for one school anyway). Students should look at it all and consider themselves.</p>