Absolutely. In fact, my very first posting on CC was looking for a diverse friendly school for S. It is a very important factor for us.
@EconPop – I really appreciated your response. How do you get additional info on (or assess) inclusion, rather than just diversity?
@caged_bird @EconPop @MamaBear2001 , thank you for your support and understanding what I was trying to convey. I actually meant that much of the literature that I received is indeed targeted. I have visited every campus that my daughter is applying to with the exception of a few last minute additions which we will visit if the need arises and depending on outcome. During these visits it is clear that the literature did not reflect the actual demographics of the college. This is one of the reasons why I am so glad to have found this group. As for reading more into it than there actually is…we know.
One thing I like to do is go to a school’s website, click on the department(s) in which my child is interested, and look at the faculty page. It usually includes pictures of the dean, professors, and sometimes assistants.
Often, the faculty list for a department will include no African-Americans at any level. That’s not a deal breaker, but if I see no minorities at all and/or very few women, that says something. Forget happenstance, quotas, and all that nonsense. The bottom line is it is practically inexcusable for a department to have no minorities (or a miniscule amount) and/or very few females. It may not be a bigoted design, but at a minimum, it is an expression of gross insouciance in regards to diversity. But, I will then go beyond that specific department and browse other departments as well. Sometimes, other departments might show diversity when one or two do not - to me, that shows effort and indicates desire for diversity.
[EDIT: I chose a school at random and used its stats (without naming the school) as an example. I deleted that for fear it would run afoul of CC’s race rules. ]
Don’t stop at the teaching staff. Look at the Admissions Office. 20 AOs with only one minority member says something. 20 AOs with 7 being minority also says something.
If a university shows disregard for diversity when it comes to staffing, I take it as a sign they may show similar disregard when it comes to making efforts to make minority students feel welcome. Or when it comes to simply understanding that sometimes minority students may be “going through something” the university may not be inclined to “understand.”
Another way is to check statistics for minorities. All NC public universities have OIRP information that reports on the statistics (racial and otherwise) for enrollment, applicants, majors, graduation numbers, and more. I’ve also been able to find similar information for schools in other states, and private schools too. Not always, but often enough.
@gardenstategal My son uses what may be his generation’s ultimate way to check for inclusion which is using social media/YouTube to see how people interact with one another at some schools. I have told him that you have to be careful drawing too many conclusions from that method of gathering information, but if similar themes among students continue to show up, then there may be some truth to what he finds through those methods.
I am more into reviewing data and campus visits as much as possible to assess fit (son has visited 20-25 schools of all types due to being with his big sister on all of her visits) but my son has found things that don’t necessarily show up in the brochures or campus visits through social media and takes that into account.
My daughter was at a school this past week for a diversity open house and found it ironic, she actually texted me to let me know that the student that they chose to address the attendees for the diversity and inclusion session was not a POC. This gave me reason to pause.
@Sarrip please do not feel you have apologize for discussing or commenting on the black student/parent perspective in the college admissions process on a CC thread dedicated to black students and parents. Keep in mind that this type of discussion is very sensitive and offensive to many on CC.
As the common data set clearly has revealed most colleges and universities have black student quotas. As the data shows this quota has remained pretty consistent over many decades across many schools. Black student % of the overall student body. If we needed any further confirmation of this, then look no further than Harvard University Dean of Admissions William Fitzsimmons testimony in the Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. Harvard case argued before the supreme court last year. He testified Harvard’s SAT cut-off scores for African American Students is 1100. Yes, you read that right a “1100” combined score on the new SAT out of 1600. Wait, Wait !!, If this is the SAT cutoff score at Harvard, the most prestigious university in the world, than what is it for all of the other colleges competing for the same black student applicant pool. So, you are right to assume that our admissions experience is completely different than every other ethnic group, hence the creation of this thread.
And yes, it is perfectly rational for you to use this information to your competitive advantage as you work in the best interest of your student and child.
@caged_bird There are very few, if any, 1100 SAT students at Harvard. That myth is why black students at Harvard have to deal with non-URM students’ disdain and belief that they did not earn their admission.
I didn’t mean to raise such a ruckus. I should have simply stated that when my AA daughter was going through the admissions process, she never received one single email, brochure, guide book or phone call relating to her being black. It has been quite a few years since she applied, so if schools are now doing more to assure students and parents of inclusive diversity, then I agree that’s a good thing.
@ChangeTheGame your observations are indeed correct and very instructive. But I am not sure that you identified an even more startling statistic at Howard. The student body gender breakdown is now 70% female and 30% men. Considering this is one of our HBCU crown jewels, this trend has far-reaching implications for our black students and children with respect to graduation outcomes and life after graduation. Howard effectively competes with spelman for most of their incoming students.
With respect to pell grant graduation rates, one factor impacting this data point is the fact many non-pell grant students simply run out of money and dropout to join workforce or go to a cheaper state public schools. Another major factor is students flunking out due to lack of academic preparation for college level work which is really foretold in the mean SAT scores of incoming students. Just think about the amount of debt these non-graduating students have when they drop-out. It’s really very sad because their future earnings are stifled as a result and never really catches up to the debt and interest payments, unless they get very lucky.
@itsgettingreal17 please go read the case transcript by the current harvard dean of admissions before referring to my post as a Myth. This testimony went before the supreme court under the rules of evidence and threat of perjury as required under american jurisprudence. This was NOT an arbitration case ! Unless of course you have evidence that the Dean perjured himself. You would be doing a service to thousands of students nationwide if you had such evidence. Please read my post again very carefully for factual errors and then post an apology once you have read the case transcripts and reviewed the common data set.
@caged_bird Reread my post. He was talking about marketing materials. Those kids aren’t getting in. The marketing cuts were low for all races.
@CottonTales, again no apology needed. We are just collecting and reporting new data as it comes in with respect to the black student admission experience. The only thing at stake is the future of our children, so we take this stuff pretty seriously. So, the wall street journal published an article on 11/5/2019 describing how the “college board” sells the SAT percentile and ethnic background list for specific students to colleges. And how it is a significant revenue source for them to do so. Others have written on this subject as well (the atlantic).
The level of sophistication that colleges have employed to target specific student demographics is really quite stunning. There are data companies where this is all they do, sell this data to colleges, they have no other lines of business. And why not the revenue stakes are massively important to the colleges.
Soooo, I am going to preemptively respond to the “I just read an article that says Colleges send this marketing material to increase there total application numbers so they can climb up the U.S. News ranking scale, especially for exclusivity/admit rates”. My response: Very True. BUT THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO BLACK STUDENTS. Hence this CC thread. Note to self: Pay attention to consistent and prolific targeted mailers and emails to your Black student. Do not ignore.
How many years ago? How many schools did your daughter apply to? Did she indicate her African-American heritage when she contacted the colleges and/or took the tests?
As I said, 35 years ago, I was receiving diversity themed marketing material from colleges when I was a high school senior. All the Ivies, MIT, and some others. And I received phone calls.
ASIDE: We sold my mother’s home a few months ago, and as we cleaned out her belongings, I came across a lot of my high school material my mother kept. It includes mailings from colleges. I wish I could post a picture here. There’s a brochure from “Harvard & Radcliffe” that is headlined “An Introduction For Prospective Minority Students.” This is from 1984. The cover has a picture of about 80-100 students gathered on the steps of a building, mostly white, but with a four or five black students gathered in the lower left corner. The brochure from Princeton says, “Princeton: Our Perspective - A Minority Student View of Princeton University.” The letter from Carl Wartenburg, Senior Admission Officer, says “Princeton is especially interested in attracting qualified monority students …”
This year, my son is receiving much much MUCH more diversity-themed material than I did. This includes calls and emails.
I don’t doubt your experience, but I suspect it is anomalous and not the norm for most African-American college hunters.
@ChangeTheGame @gardenstategal The use of social media as an indicator of inclusiveness was something my DD did as well to compile her lists. She showed me her methodology and I was quite impressed. And then I thought “maybe” social media does play a constructive role in the lives of our children. And then I remembered how long I had to wait for her to show me her method as she clicked on the “like” icon for countless mindless videos and thought never mind my previous epiphany.
And NOT coincidentally her social media inclusivity index method corresponded pretty well to the black student admit, retention and graduation rates data at predominately white schools.
I didn’t mean to leave out that stat, but I have seen it 1st hand at Howard (daughter’s initial class was made up of 1100 young women and 500 young men) so I didn’t think to talk about it. You are right that it is a startling statistic, but the worst part is that I am seeing similar splits at almost all but the very top schools between African American women and men when I review data. That is why I believe I have seen such a big difference in the way that schools have marketed and approached my high stats son (in comparison to my daughter). His profile seems harder to find.
Love that quote and totally agree with you…
Hello everyone! I’m very thankful for this thread. It is good to know I’m not alone pulling up the statistical facts for both of my D’s college searches. I have a senior and a junior and I have been having a challenging time with my seniors stance on not feeling like an HBCU was for her. I can not argue with her points of view when I see what she desires in a school. Small Liberal Arts (LA), in a city, with diversity also demonstrated, strong sciences with access to internships, and close faculty relationships.
With that in mind her school college advisor suggested Rhodes in Memphis. We are from the north east and have no real factual gauge on the political or racial climate for that area. But of course I don’t want her in any area where she would be discriminated against.
Out of the many many of the LA schools that she visited, Rhodes clicked for her. It crosses off everything she desired on her list. One of the things that I noticed at many schools is that there is Greek life, but no National Panhellenic Council, Inc. frats or sororities on the campuses. That gives me pause. I am not as concerned about her joining a sorority as I am about there being a presence on campus where she can feel understood.
With all my digging I found one school where this may be the contrary to my thinking. It had a Greek presence, but no black frats or sororities, but 100% graduation rate for black females. That’s higher than there overall grad rate! They do have a program for girls of color to get together on campus and discuss issues and feel like they have a place of belonging.
Although this is not the school she wants, it is something that has stayed in my mind about considering what is best. So many of you have helped me with your comments. I wanted to share hoping that it helps someone else as they maybe pondering the same type of things.
@ChangeTheGame, If he is a true High-stats african american male, let’s say 90% percentile or above, I hope you and he realizes how much power you have in this process and how much money you can get. Now, if both of his parents are american born african americans then your power just went up exponentially. If you keep an open mind he may be able to get through college debt-free which will have a greater impact on his future earnings capacity than the college he attended. CC DISCLAIMER: Again, this only applies to Black Students.
I have been wondering if it’s a way to find out what is the average ACT/SAT scores for black students in each college. I was able to find the average in the country, but it would be much helpful to know specifically for each college what’s the average depending on race and gender. When I google each college I can see the average for the all the students. Is it anyway we can find out that info? It will be easy to target colleges knowing that data.
@KinestheticKT Rhodes is a hidden GEM and a special place, especially for Black Students. so I can tell that you and your student have done your research. Among the many others stats their commitment to community service is almost unmatched anywhere in the country with a 90% plus participation rate. And it is even more impressive considering most of it is within the black community in the greater memphis area. That tells you a lot about the student body culture and its openness. We visited and have family in the area and was very impressed.
What is DD intended major ? Rhodes is one of those few LACs that graduates 25% plus students with STEM degrees/50% female, so the student body is very academically diverse. so you have lots of peers with various interests. Needless to say there admit rate to graduate school is very impressive. Definitely on the high-end for african american representation every year (7 %plus) for such a small school. And what drives successful career outcomes, experiential learning, and Rhodes has nailed it. My sources in the area tell me it is a feeder school to grad school at Vanderbilt for us blacks.
Tell us more and we will send other ideas…