Aiming too High

Parents Forum
1

My DD is a junior and her and mom went on some college tours this weekend.

She is a strong student (4.0 unweighted GPA) and has lots of AP’s, extracurriculars etc. She will certainly get the highest Florida bright Futures (which pays 100% of tuition, fees and a certain amount towards books). It looks like she would be a strong match for UF or FSU (nearly certain to get into both).

She is interested in political science/economics but more than that, she wants to go to school in either Washington DC, Boston or NYC. Her thinking is that she would have better access to internships with governmental/international agencies. Additionally, she is not all that fired up to go to a “college town” and strongly prefers the big city atmosphere.

She just took the PSAT and she identified some schools that have a great package for national merit scholars (Fordham) and others with some great scholarships (W&M 1693 scholars or Boston College Presidential Scholars). I have told her that “yes” these scholarships exist but that getting them is VERY difficult. Like many 17-year-olds, she is pretty confident that her understanding of the world is better than mine and that she will get one of these elite opportunities.

Although, as I said above, she has done great in school so far, she just doesn’t get that there are 25+ thousand high schools and that there are many kids with great grades, extracurriculars. Boy, I hope that she proves me wrong and gets one of these opportunities.

I continue to tell her that we can not afford full freight (or anything near) at these schools but she continues to push for these and dismisses that the most likely route for her will go through one of the state universities in Florida.

Has anyone else gone through this during a child’s college search? I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed at this point and would appreciate some advice. Thanks!

2

You are smart to be clear and upfront about the budgetary constraints.

Have her look up the common data sets for the schools on her list so she can see for herself how competitive they really are.

She should also look at some less competitive schools in her target cities where she’ll have a better shot a merit $.

You are fortunate to have great flagships in your state!

3

I think you are doing the right thing by trying to temper her expectations. For my kids, I gave them a figure that I could pay each year and then the list was built around that. If a school had merit options that would make it affordable if they got the merit award, then I let them apply with the understanding that if not enough merit was offered then they’d have to walk away.

You are correct that the scholarships at W&M and BU are very very hard to get. Is there any data from her school that could help her see that high stat kids aren’t necessarily getting these big scholarships? Any anecdotal data for her? Maybe her GC can talk with her about how hard those scholarships are to get and that she should not count on any of those.

Had she visited any of the Florida schools? It’s going to be important for her to have at least one safety that she really would be happy to attend.

4

I have a senior now and we had those discussions last year. We are full pay and he has elite stats but sorry, no need only schools on the list. He is applying to a few schools with competitive scholarships and chances for decent merit but he’s also applying to several safeties where the EFC on the NPC works. He might apply to BU. We’ll see. My kid needs to come in range of our state flagship.

As a kid that already has free tuition available somewhere, I might talk to her about possible grad school in one of these bigger cities when parents finances don’t weigh into ticket price and you’re talking about 2 years vs. 4 and ROI of a master’s when you’re talking about liberal arts. It was also helpful to talk to my kid about what he can take out in a loan (federal student limits) and that anything over that would need a cosign. And there is no way we are approaching retirement with co-signing on our backs. And we aren’t taking out loans either. It helped my kid to break out a new grad budget and what it looks like having a loan payment on your back while you’re trying to establish yourself. Or your inability to take a riskier job with a campaign because those loan payments are over your head. MANY schools have great placement services to get students into internships. I know kids from the rural midwest spending their summers in DC or LA or NYC for internships with placement from a college.

I also think in your case saying she’d need to get full tuition or very close at one of these schools for it to make sense to not take the free scholarship. The FL tuition deal is so fantastic though. She already has a great option close at hand.

5

Perhaps tell her that (a) the price limit is $___, (b) at [expensive colleges], her goal is not merely admission, but enough scholarships / FA to bring the net price to below the price limit, and (c) scholarships may be significantly harder to get than admission.

In other words, that she needs to treat admission but with insufficient scholarships / FA as equivalent to rejection.

Perhaps also offer that if she chooses a college below the price limit, the rest of the money is available for post-BA/BS professional school or other educational costs, if you are willing to make that offer.

6

I agree you are doing the right thing by being upfront about finances. She is in great position to have excellent and affordable in-state options. If she can find schools she prefers that fall in your cost constraint that is great, otherwise she should plan on attending a FL public.

You should remind her that she should have options to do a semester or even an year abroad (and can choose to go to a large city) or in another US city (my D’s friend did an exchange program at American U in DC for a semester) even if she ends up at one of the FL colleges.

7

We went through some of this and found setting a budget and letting the kids optimize within that was useful. So they have a 529 and can keep the balance for grad school (or buying a house later on) if they don’t spend it on undergrad.

FWIW S18 who is a poli sci/econ kid didn’t get shortlisted for W&M 1693 despite great stats (4.0UW/1540 SAT/10 APs, 8 5s, NM Commended) and ECs (senior class president, political internship, etc) and showing interest (visiting for an interview etc). He did get their Monroe scholarship but that doesn’t give any money, so wasn’t much use. He had really wanted to be near DC for internships and connections (and got decent merit of $20K-$25K pa at GWU and American, plus an Echols scholarship at UVA as well as Monroe at W&M) but eventually decided to stay in-state (UCLA) as that was by far the most cost effective solution, and he can do a quarter in DC plus summer internships if he wants. He hadn’t really considered the in-state options at all (his first visit to UCLA was on admitted students day), but he now loves it there.

His second choice was UVA, because although it didn’t offer any money, the flexibility of Echols would have allowed graduation in 3 years. He didn’t apply to various places that don’t offer merit even though he would have really liked to attend some of them (e.g. Georgetown). The only place that would have been more cost effective than the UCs would have been Oxford PPE (only slightly more for a 3 year degree than it will cost for 4 years at a UC), though your in-state schools are more generous than ours.

There are definitely good merit scholarships at lower ranking schools and there it’s a question of comparing it to your in-state options. Fordham did offer good merit for my D18 (with similar stats to her brother) in terms of tuition, though the room and board is very expensive in New York ($20K per year before other expenses). But we didn’t find other affordable options in NY/DC/Boston either (though we weren’t looking hard at the East Coast for her). She ended up getting excellent merit offers elsewhere too and decided to choose one of those (University of Utah) over staying instate (the choice was more related to her major than the money itself). She also loves her choice.

8

You should certainly set a budget and stick with it. Personally I would be inclined to understate the budget by just a little bit. If you can really afford a total of $200,000 over four years, then tell her that you can afford $180,000 or $160,000 over four years. Some unexpected expenses will come up. Of course if you are from Florida and she ends up going to university in Boston you will for example have some expenses for travel plus at least a little bit for winter gear.

It would be lovely if you could manage to visit during one of our winter northeaster’s so that she can witness a downside of living in the northeast, but that might be hard to arrange.

Have her apply to a range of schools. You have great in-state options in Florida and she needs to apply there in addition to the schools in the northeast. Then when the offers come in you can at least get a pretty good idea what they are going to cost before needing to commit to one school.

9

My kids’ options are 100% controlled by budge, so budget is a definite part of our conversation. We allow our kids to apply for competitive scholarships to see “what if” (and they have both been awarded them and not awarded them.) But they know in the end that cost will be a major deciding factor, not their personal preferences if those come out significantly more expensive.

For example, our Dd was awarded a full-tuition scholarship from Fordham, but once we factored in room, board, books, travel expenses, we figured it would be around $20,000/yr. She was also awarded much larger scholarships from other schools and attends one that costs us about a 1/3 of that. She had multiple affordable choices to choose from and is very happy where she is.

Fwiw, our kids have used the opportunities on their given campuses to their fullest advantage and they have not been held back from their goals at all.

10

Just be clear about the budget and make sure you have colleges that fit the bill if those scholarships don’t come through. I don’t know what your budget is, but my younger son did not have a 4.0 by any means, got a big scholarship from American. They like to be shown the love, so while it’s not a rock solid safety, it should be a pretty good bet for your daughter. My son actually liked American better than some of his reachier schools.

11

With UF and FSU as solid safeties, what is the harm of aiming high? You have a great kid who excels in academics in school, who knows what she wants to do in life, and who has the confidence of achieving her goals. My advice to you @FlaParent is to stay out of her wayand let her take off!

Those big time scholarships you mentioned are indeed very competitive to get, but they do get claimed in the end, why not by your kid?

To get one of those scholarships, you do need to stand out in ways though.

  1. 4.0 UWGPA (or almost)
  2. 1600 SAT/36ACT (or almost)
  3. Did something extraordinary in her EC
  4. Be a nice and caring person

Good luck to you and your kid!

12

Good for you, OP. As a junior she should be looking at dream schools but also visit her instate options. For now you can treat them as backups even though you parents know they are likely her eventual reality. The facts are that even students with “perfect” stats (adding the top test scores to her gpa) do not all get admitted to all schools they apply to and even if they do get admitted there are many who can’t afford them. Less than half of NM finalists will get any scholarship money. Trying to game the system by looking at how many are offered by a school usually won’t work either. State flagships have many top students who are of elite caliber who can’t afford other options, don’t get in or don’t want a lesser school no matter how much finances are taken care of.

This year have her research many schools both in and OOS. She can look at top tier schools that seem to offer much aid. Next fall she will do her applications- be sure she includes those dreaded instate options. Be sure she considers the academics foremost, not going for free rides at schools where she will not have her academic peer group or as good academics.

You have this grace year to let her dream. Enjoy. Next year she faces reality. That’s another whole year of growing and changing for her.

13

Agree with all the advice here. The only thing I’ll add is that for some of the financial reaches that say they don’t award merit aid, it’s possible their definition of need-aid is more generous. So if you’re on the need bubble - say an EFC of $60 or 65k – you might get more need aid at some generous colleges than you think. Places that come to mind are Princeton, Duke, etc. Hard to get in, of course, but they do give more need-aid than you might think so could be worth a shot but know its a hail mary. Agree that you have to level set with your D that it’s only an option if it comes in at X cost year, even if she’s accepted. And, of course, if your EFC is really sky high then you indeed probably won’t get any need-based aid.

Also, my D was chasing merit last year so I will throw out some options of great schools that have merit that might be a little less competitive than some your D is currently looking at. If she really wants to leave Florida she may need to expand her range of options My D had 4.0, NMF, etc., etc. and received 1/2 tuition merit scholarships from Scripps (part of 5Cs), Mt. Holyoke, and Grinnell (not urban at all!!).

Good luck!

14

I’ve always discussed financial stuff with my kids as long as I remember, so when time came for college applications, they knew exactly what we can afford and can’t. No But’s and If’s or whatever. The older one’s admission to a private college in the east coast was outside the budget, so he settled for our in-state flag with a presidential scholarship. No argument, no issues. The younger one’s colleges that admitted him were mostly outside the budget, too, so he committed to the one with the best FA offer that was within out budget. To me earlier the child knows the financial possibilities and boundaries, the easier it gets later. Communication is the key.

15

I love how you phrased this. I agree with the other posters to let your DD know the cost parameters and let her apply widely. Make sure she is happy to attend her safety(s) or you’ll be doing this again a year later.

16

Another thought. Have her list the positives for her dream schools and find substitute schools that are closest to her goals. She will be surprised to find that there is life outside her target zone that can yield the same eventual results. In particular, have her investigate programs at the top instate schools that may lead to the same careers. Usually school departments will list potential jobs with a given major.

17

She should look at some of the women’s colleges. Some are need-based only and some are need-based plus merit. If she is accepted into several she may be able to negotiate terms that work for you financially and her desire to be closer to a large mid-Atlantic or Northeast city at a top academic institution. They tend to offer excellent aid.

Wellesley – promises that any person accepted will be able to go. A combo of need-based and merit. Access to classes at MIT. In the suburbs of Boston with transportation. Feel on campus is generally all ambitious and smart women. Gorgeous campus

Mt. Holyoke – excellent merit aid; part of consortium that includes Smith, Amherst, Hampshire, and UMass Amherst. Feel is cozier – has sunrooms in every dorm for winter months – and homebaked cookies. Women attending are ambitious yet it retains the feel of homey. Gorgeous campus. In small town.

Smith – excellent merit and part of consortium that includes Mt. Holyoke, Amherst, UMass Amherst, and Hampshire. Feel among students is driven and political. campus is gorgeous with more New England clapboard-style buildings and dorms. In a cute bustling town.

Barnard – in NYC, full access to all of Columbia University’s programs and facilities, and vice versa, as Barnard is one of the undergraduate colleges of CU. Feel on campus is an intellectual full campus with smart ambitious women, who also take classes across the street at CU–so more men to interact with socially and academically. School is in upper Manhattan, quieter part of the City with excellent transportation to all that NYC offers. Barnard is need-based aid only.

Bryn Mawr – Located just outside of Philadelphia, it’s easy to get to the city and, by train or bus, to Washington DC, NYC, or Boston (muchlonger trip to Boston, but it’s on the same train line). In a consortium with Haverford, Swarthmore, UPenn. Haverford and BMC have a long historic relationship and they are located only about a mile apart – the schedules and departments are coordinated – so you effectively have a twin campus with men as part of Haverford’s campus. The Haverbros also come to BMC for classes, and for the pool, and geology, etc. BMC offers merit plus need-based aid and has excellent relationships with DC and NYC.

Vassar is coed now but is counted as one of the Seven Sisters with the other schools. It’s located on the train line (commuter rail) north of NYC. It’s close enough to be able to take a day trip into the City. Vassar is need-based aid only.

18

Your daughter has worked so hard. I admire her ambition. I hope that you encourage her to continue to dream big. Sounds like an awesome kid.

19

Sit down with her and run an NPC for a Nice But Not Top school and then again for an elite school on her list. Then then bring the budget back out and show how necessary the merit is to affording this endeavor. She can do the legwork to find a Very Good Enough school that’ll still throw money at her.

20

Definitions differ as to what is “excellent aid”. Many (including on this thread) would describe a half tuition merit offer as excellent aid, but it can still leave you paying $50K per year. All but one of S18’s OOS options were going to cost $200K or more for 4 years, despite getting maximum merit aid (other than named scholarships) at most of these schools. So treat many of these recommendations with caution. If your budget is $40K-$50K per year then such merit options can be worth exploring. If your budget is $20K to $30K per year (and your EFC is well above that) then they are very little use.