How common is it for students to take all regular college prep high school courses (doing well in them), get admitted to a selective college (say, selectivity like a typical state flagship), and succeed (not need remedial courses, graduate in the expected amount of time based on high school grades and test scores)?
Assumptions:
No honors, AP, IB, or similar courses, and the high school is not an elite one whose regular courses are more rigorous or advanced than honors, AP, IB, or similar courses.
4 years of English.
math through precalculus/trigonometry.
foreign language through level 4.
US history, government/civics, and additional history and social studies electives to make 3-4 years.
3-4 years of science including biology, chemistry, and physics.
art and/or music.
Basically, are the regular college prep courses at a typical (i.e. non-elite) public or private high school sufficient to ensure that a student who does well in them is college-ready? Or have they been diluted so that honors, AP, IB, or similar courses are now widely considered the minimum for college readiness?
I don’t know in terms of public school students, but several of the homeschooling families we know IRL fit that profile. Their kids go to typical public universities, do well, and graduate. I can think of a few of my kids’ close friends who majored/are majoring in nursing, computer science, English, mechanical engineering, and art (I think interior design. She graduated in May and is employed in commercial interior design.) I do not believe any of them completed a foreign language through level 4. Most completed 3.
There is a big difference between courses being offered and student not taking them and students not being able to take them because they were not offered.
If the school does not offer Honors/AP/IB then the student is not going to be penalized for not taking these courses.
It is not unusual for underfunded schools where there are a large number of the students who are Title I,Title III or have a sizable number of students with disabilities not to offer an array of AP/Honors/IB courses as they may have to use their resources to deliver AIS an mandates.
Schools in my area typically have a 3-tiered system with Honors and AP.
At most schools it seems that the lowest level is designated ‘General’ or ‘Academic’, however some districts now refer to it as ‘College Prep’.
I suppose the change is to encourage even those students whose academic record will not qualify them for Honors or AP to consider (assume?) that college should be in their future. These courses certainly will not meet the ‘most rigorous’, or even ‘rigorous’ standard, and so won’t prepare these kids for admission to any selective institution, but the local CC will accept them.
I think it varies state-by-state and district-by-district, hard to generalize. The fact is that some high schools just do a better job of educating students than others. That said, my S went to a very well-regarded HS with a high level of elite college admissions success, as well as to the top UC’s, and we found his experience to be spotty, especially in AP courses. It seemed for his APs, teachers were either really good or really bad. So there are even variations within the top schools, further illustrating why it’s difficult to generalize.
It also depends where they go to college, some are more rigorous than others, and I don’t think you can even generalize across state flagships.
Your original question is a good one to think about due to it’s wider ranging social implications, but I think the answer is largely that it depends, unless you are focusing on a particular state or school district and trying to understand the local factors for success.
This is a great question. I had exactly the type of HS education you are describing and although I did moderately well at my LAC 40 years ago, I felt a little less prepared than some of my classmates who had gone to prep schools.
My D went to an independent school, and took a mix of “regular” classes and APs. At college I think she feels more confident in those subjects that she took as APs in HS. On the other hand, she just may be naturally better at them to begin with.
I am running this experiment, to some extent, in my house right now. S1 took exactly 1 AP class, calculus. Honors classes in local HS were considered the norm (i.e. regular classes viewed as remedial). Doing very well at state flagship as a junior in engineering. S2 did the same with only a AP gov class. Currently a freshman at same school, so no data to report.
In my opinion, AP classes in HS have more work, but do not promote greater understanding. So the only benefit is the potential for a boost in college admissions.
So called “regular” classes may be vastly different from one HS to another. This was discovered by my D. when she started college (not selective, regular in-state public). Also, she was shocked by the need to step up considerably in the academic effort at college in comparison to HS. Those who did not realize it or were too lazy to adjust, simply got derailed from their original track.
OK, for reference to understand what I am actually talking about, D. graduated at the top of her private HS that is ranked #2 among privates in our state. She attended in-state public college as a pre-med. Her prep. was a bit better than others and she was hired as an SI (supplemental instructor) in Gen. Chem class, the job that she had for 3 years of college. However, she said that she was shocked by the high level of classes in comparison to HS, she needed to step up her academic efforts considerably. For example, her very first Bio class in the first semester of the freshman year went thru HS AP Bio material in the first 2 weeks of class and then they moved forward. D. had both Honors Bio and AP Bio (5 on exam) and still had the hardest time (as everybody else) in this class, although she was able to get an A. Good number of HS valedictorians in this class got derailed from their original pre-med track.
Now, I do not know anything about selective colleges. However, I have hard time believing that the academic level at selective colleges would be lower than at the in-state publics.
Consider yourself so called “ready”, if you are at least psychologically ready to step up your academic efforts considerably at college.
My kids have (had) lots of friends in their college classes who were honors students with AP backgrounds who really struggled in their math/science/engineering classes. Both of my sons have spent a lot of time tutoring friends. I think the background is the required context. I think students who are used to mostly memorizing info and having plug and chug type problems to solve with tests focused on regurgitating info are at a disadvantage regardless of what level classroom experience they were in.
Students who have been expected to demonstrate higher levels of understanding/analyzing/evaluating/creating will be better equipped for the complex problem solving required upper level math/engineering/science. (Obviously my experience with college students up to this point is STEM. ) I know my oldest in particular was surrounded by kids who had been super stars in high school who found college classes a major transition.
@Mom2aphysicsgeek - I think we are on the same page. I don’t believe AP classes predict success, but should not be viewed as a hindrance either.
For the initial question, I wonder if a college has ever compiled statistic to see the actual correlation between level of HS classes and college performance. Of course, what fun would that be? Then the web couldn’t argue about it.
You could do a regular college prep curriculum in high school, with 4 years each of math, science, social studies, English and foreign language, and do quite well, say 3.6 to 3.8 GPA.
But you should at least try to challenge yourself with some honors courses. Most students in our HS take at least English and math at honors level. Some also take a second level science class as honors.
Not all are ready for AP. Mostly history classes are offered as AP at our school, but require good English skills (essays).
Another thing would be to see if the SAT scores would be high enough to be competitive if you only took academic classes.
So yes, such a student could go to college, a selective college maybe not.
I guess I would ask why the student didn’t take honors or AP classes. Some kids aren’t interested yet. Some schools don’t offer it. How are the student’s standardized test scores? it won’t be the same for every kid but it is certainly possible and even likely that a kid that didn’t take all the hardest classes in high school will do just fine in college. Both my husband and I fall into that category. More interested in marching band, AP classes not offered, no good advising, lazy, matured later, etc. H went to community college, then university (a UC) and then grad school. I went straight to a UC (I did have good grades and high SAT scores). and graduated with honors. My last high school math class was algebra II/trig as a junior. Went straight to calculus and got A’s. The regular high school classes were fine as prep. I did take honors English. Senior year class was terrible. Not prepared for college level writing at all but I caught up. I think it’s going to depend on the kid and the reasons behind the high school record.
Our high school has four levels of courses: “sheltered” (which covers the curriculum but sometimes at a lower pace), College Prep/Regents, Honors and AP. Sometimes both an honors and AP will be offered for the same grade level (ie college prep, honors or AP English, other times the honors course is basically the pre-AP track, ie. honors pre-Calc and other times there is only AP, ie there was no honors physics, you took AP Physics B as your first level physics class.)
The district claims that almost 27% of graduates go to 2 year colleges and 53% to 4 year colleges and some gp directly to the military. The kids in the honors/AP classes go to selective universities and some go to State Universities. I know at least one student who was not on an AP track, but who must have had excellent grades (top 2% GPA) went to one of the better CUNYs. Did they succeed once in college? Who knows, I don’t think high schools follow up to find out.
It really depends on how rigorous your regular HS courses are and how competitive the state flagship is. I’d talk to the guidance counselor and see if students with that curriculum have been successful in the past at state flagships etc.
One thing my S’s guidance counselor said that stuck with me is is that college admissions officers are very good at only accepting students who can be successful at their school…so if he/she is accepted then he/can can probably do the work.
For a variety of reasons, including a semester abroad, my daughter only took a couple of AP courses. All the rest were “regular” or “honors” – which almost all college bound kids took so it’s hard to call it “honors.” She graduated from a school more selective than her flagship, and went on to get a STEM master’s from Georgetown.
There are variables that are much more subtle than just AP vs. non-AP.
Has your son ever written an actual research paper, i.e. not just a summary of a bunch of tertiary sources, but come up with an idea/thesis on his own, and then had to figure out how to craft an argument, which sources to cite, and do a proper bibliography? Has your son had to do open-ended tests where there isn’t necessarily a right answer (even in the sciences) but where his thought pattern has to be laid out- or is everything multiple choice? Can he read a lengthy article and write a succinct, grammatical three paragraph summary? Has he ever done a lab report- even for a very simple experiment?
To me- this is the pedagogy which counts, not necessarily the content which is conveyed in a high school class. I came from an OK public HS and thought I was pretty well prepared for college, but quickly saw that the kids from other public school systems and prep schools had done MUCH more of what I’ve outlined above- and much less of the multiple choice, fill in the blank, worksheet type assigments than I had done.
The Art History midterm of my Freshman year nearly killed me. Two paintings flashed up on the screen in a large lecture hall, followed by a slide which said “Discuss”. The paintings stayed on the wall from three hours while my classmates furiously scribbled away in their blue books.
I literally had no clue. I had done all the reading, attended every lecture, gone to a review session- but had never been asked an open-ended academic question before.
Please note that there is no specific student in the original question; it is more of a general question. Of course, some replies may reference specific students.
When I was in high school, there were students who did not take honors or AP courses (or maybe just one) who went to respectable four year colleges. But does that happen today?
My sil had that same experience at Harvard. She had never ever written a research paper in high school. She flunked out first semester, took some time off, and actually attended University of Florida for a while before going back to Harvard considerably more ready for the work.
I know that even in regular English and History classes (because my kids took a few) there will be at least some papers required.
I think it really depends on the high school. My local HS is very competitive, for better or worse. The expectations are high at all levels. For students in all non-honors, non-AP classes throughout HS, who reach pre-calc (not calc), fourth-year language, and may or may not take physics, and have a 28-31 ACT, popular colleges where they end up are: Boston University, SUNY Binghamton, Drexel, University of Maryland, University of Delaware, University of Vermont, Lehigh, Tulane, University of Pittsburgh, Penn State, Syracuse, and Elon. This is assuming they have a qualifying GPA. The superintendent always says that although he’s always proud of where the top students end up, he’s even prouder of where the middle-of-the-pack ends up.
So I guess what I am trying to say is, honors classes in some schools are equivalent to “regular” college prep level in other schools. That’s why admissions officers get the know the high schools and take that into consideration.
) I know my oldest in particular was surrounded by kids who had been super stars in high school who found college classes a major transition.