<p>For all you parents of artsy, musical, theatrical kids: Is it really important to be selected to All-State Chorus or Opera Fest? </p>
<p>D wants to study or perform in some capacity once she is in college --classical voice, I guess. University or LAC, not a conservatory setting. Don't know if she would be taken seriously as a candidate for any choirs, choruses, glee clubs, etc. if she is not selected for All-States. Her h.s. does not participate, and I haven't found any way to get her sponsored for auditions. </p>
<p>Will this be a problem? What other programs would be worth pursuing as an alternative?</p>
<p>College choirs of that type generally hold their own auditions which are open to anyone who signs up. They are not going to care whether or not she was All-Anything and may not even bother to ask about such things. They want to know how well she will fit in with the existing group, both vocally and socially. If she happens to be a voice part or a voice type that the group needs right then, so much the better. There is constant turnover in school groups and their needs may well change from semester to semester. Many schools have several vocal groups, with a few that are pretty competitive and at least a couple that will take anyone who can carry a tune. She might also think about starting her own group - that happens a lot at schools (although it might be rare for someone to do it in their first semester there.)</p>
<p>She should work on her audition skills: ear-training exercises, sight singing, diction, the ability to blend with others when singing together and to stand out as a soloist if she gets the opportunity. The ability to sing in several languages is also important - she doesn't have to be fluent, but it helps to know proper pronunciation and vocal technique for producing sounds that are not in her native language. The best way to accomplish these things is to take voice lessons with a teacher who is good at working with choristers and not just operatic voices, and to sing with the best year-round chorus or two that she can get into while still in high school. </p>
<p>The honors ensembles can be fun, and they introduce the kids to some very talented directors, but they are not the only game in town. I see that you live in New Jersey; so do I. If you happen to live in the northern third of the state, I can probably suggest some good teachers and groups to sing with. PM me if you want some recommendations.</p>
<p>One thing that anyone considering music as a major should know...EVERYONE on the college level majoring in music (where an audition is required) is of All State caliber. To be honest, it's nice having those playing experiences, but they will not distinguish you much unless you were the principal on your instrument for four years...and even then...And remember too, All State ensemble quality varies quite a bit from state to state.</p>
<p>Here in NJ (and I presume in some other states,) in order for a school to be able to send kids to All-State, at least one teacher from the school must be an NJMEA member and must be willing to judge auditions and work at the events doing musical, support and/or chaperone jobs. It really takes a big commitment from an individual teacher and requires many hours of unpaid volunteer time on their part. Many of the larger public and private schools are fortunate to have dedicated individuals who are willing and able to do what it takes to send kids to these honors ensembles. Smaller public and private schools may have only one or two music teachers at the high school level and, if they are not in a position to give that freely of their time and effort, the kids at those schools get shut out. </p>
<p>Additionally, the contract the kids have to sign to register for an audition commits them to a lot of rehearsal and performance time and they are only permitted one absence from a rehearsal (either for a conflict with a school concert with a teacher's note or for a medical emergency with a doctor's note.) Some very good musicians are stretched too thin to be able to make that kind of commitment. The result is that you can have a student who is far and away the best in the state on their instrument or voice part, but who is either not allowed to register for an audition or who cannot participate because of scheduling issues.</p>
<p>What thumper says is true. Pretty much everyone who successfully auditions into a competitive music program has All-State level or better chops, but not all of them can audition for an All-State group. </p>
<p>At least in NJ, you can only play in All-State for three years because the concerts are held in the fall of the next academic year after the auditions. Therefore, you can audition in Freshman, Sophomore and Junior years and play in Sophomore, Junior and Senior years. You cannot play in Freshman year or audition in Senior year.</p>
<p>BassDad, your posts & the links you pm'd me are great! D will have to look around for other opportunities, as she is one of those NJ kids shut out of AllState 'cause her school doesn't take part. At least these posts make me feel relieved that All-State isn't actually required, as other kids are in the same boat.</p>
<p>At a significant financial hardship to my family, I am sending my son to a high school with a performing arts program. I pay tuition to give my son the opportunity that he would not have had in his own school district. This year he made all state choir and will be awarded the governors award (given to just 4 students out of the 350 that make all-state in the state each year). It is upsetting to me that if he was in his own town school he would not have had this opportunity, since this school does not offer entrance auditions into this program. The good news is he is realizing potential. The bad news is we should not have to pay $11,000 a year (with no transportation reimbursement, as well) to send a "gifted" student to a school when we pay taxes in a town that does not offer the same program. We were told that since they have a chorus in the school he has the same options but he really doesn't. I was wondering if there is any legal remedies for this?</p>
<p>You want to sue the local school district for not having an All State chorus? My D's private school here in Los Angeles had no All State Chorus(and really no chorus to speak of at all), and frankly I had never even heard of All State until two years ago. She made her own opportunities through private study and practice. Her auditions for school demonstrated her hard work. (technique, language skills, healthy development and poise)
Thats how most vocalists pursue their craft. What you perceive as "fairness" has nothing to do with it. Music study, as most parents and students can attest to, is expensive. But it paid off over four years ago when she was offered several music scholarships as an entering freshman.</p>
<p>a bit upset - My advice would have been to spend the tuition on private voice lessons and intensive summer programs - I fail to see how all state participation is that advantageous to a vocalist. Neither my D nor any of her friends who are now voice majors in college participated in high school choirs - and none did any of the all state choirs. Her performing arts school didn't even have a choir. Choral work is, for the most part, irrelevant to vocal performance and, in some situations, can be detrimental if the student does not use good technique in the choral work. If a singer wants to focus on solo work, then he/she needs to find some way to get some experience in solo performance. For most kids, unless they are at a performing arts high school, that comes in recitals with private voice teachers. In college, performing with an ensemble can be fun and is often required, but it is of little importance to the development of the singer - with the exception of improving sight singing skills. While the music ed majors often choose to take part in more advanced ensemble work, the vocal performance majors often do not find those experiences as rewarding and do as little as possible so they can focus on solo work. Many voice teachers at the college level encourage their students to do less, not more, choral work.</p>
<p>Of the 4 VP majors accepted in DD's class, she's a sophomore, at least 1 had never sung in any choruses or all state. It was not even noted during any auditions or discussions. They were much more interested in her solo work and her NFAA submission. But in the end it was all about the audition. </p>
<p>You do not say what year she is but she should focus on lessons with a good private teacher who will work on an appropriate repertoire and audition preparation. Visit potential colleges. Talk to the professors and take sample lessons if possible. You will have a much better grasp of what is needed.</p>
<p>Both my S and D participated in All-State Mixed Chorus (NY) as seniors. While I do not think it made a real difference in being accepted at the places they ultimately chose for college, I do feel that there are other advantages. For a university/college where one has to be accepted academically as well as musically, having all-state on your resum</p>
<p>Every time this topic comes up I feel like I have to add my voice: my son is a very serious jazz musician attending a top conservatory and he was never an All-State participant. Most of his private lesson teachers outside of public school brushed off the importance of State School Music Association competitions. They are actually supposed to be learning experiences anyway---you learn a piece and get feedback from a judge in a written evaluation. That being said, the experience of participating in the festival if you achieve that accolade is really exciting and I wouldn't take that away from anyone. I just feel strongly that NOT making it does not affect your acceptablility to a music program in a college or conservatory.</p>
<p>The accolade of All State selection is but one data point in a long list on most high level level applications. Many of the very top level performance aspirants aren't participating for any number of very valid reasons, including the peer level is too "low", the private instructor sees it as a diversion, or there is no program that allows the student to be included within the applicant pool.</p>
<p>Quality and availablility of ensemble, instruction and participation vary widely among both public and private schools, districts, within and among states.</p>
<p>All State is a good experience for many in terms of being able to guage their level of talent among a broader base, experience new conductors and ensemble directors perform at a high level among like minded peers. But it will not make or break a potential music based admission.</p>
<p>Money spent on a lawsuit would be better suited towards applying the funds to full music immersion intensive summer programs. Here will be a MUCH broader base of comparison as to what it might be like for a potential undergrad performance major.</p>
<p>I agree with jazzzmomm. My son never participated in All-State and is attending a top conservatory for jazz. The only students who ever made All-State from our very rural school were bass players and trombonists because they are always in need of them. I noted that previous top All-State jazz musicians in these groups tend to attend in-state schools and plan to be music teachers or not do music at all. As others have reiterated, at conservatories in particular, it is all about the audition.</p>
<p>While my son did attend All-State, and it was a fun experience for him, it had little or no direct bearing on his college acceptances. Choir was a very positive experience for him, he loved his choir director, he learned to appreciate types of music that he would have otherwised not been exposed to and it was a good introduction to sight reading. I completely agree with Cartera. He was in choir in HS and did some church singing, but it was the private voice lessons that were the very most important thing for his development as a singer and I'm sure with out these lessons his results in college acceptances would have been quite different. For many students who are working on a solo career the choir obligations in college are a neccessary "evil" to be fufilled for college scholarship requirements. I'm not saying that being in a choir is a bad thing, I personally LOVE to hear a choir, but the type of singing you do in a choir can be very different than the type of singing you do for solo work. So to A Bit Upset, relax. If your son has a good private instructor, everything should be fine. If not then you need to find one....and that is another can of worms :)!</p>
<p>I agree with all the posters. When your s or d auditions or a choral program at school or a summer program or performance opportunity, it is the audition of the moment that counts. An All-State credential appears on the overall resume for admission to the college or program. All-State is a great and memorable experience that my d enjoyed as a performer as did my husband and myself in the audience. What was nice about All-State was to meet several of the others at BUTI and then again on the audition circuit.</p>
<p>I will add that my D did sing with the Peabody chorus for years - several auditors mentioned that at her audition because they either knew past or present directors or just recognized it as a well-regarded auditioned chorus. She didn't continue with it senior year, however, because she wanted to focus on audition preparation. Before that, she was with an auditioned statewide children's chorus that included intensive solfege instruction. Some background in solfege is very helpful for sight singing. She is grateful for her choral experience because she, like many others, knows that church work may be of great help financially at some point. Getting that work requires good sight singing skills.</p>
<p>cartera45's point about sight-singing is a good one. If someone is looking to develop sight-singing skills, regular choral singing will help much more than once-a-year All-State experience. My son (Vocal P major) did All-State multiple times, including a solo, but where he developed his sight-singing ability was in an Anglican-based men and boys choir that rehearsed twice a week and sang every Sunday and sometimes threw in an evensong--he sang as a boy for 4 years and as a man for 4. That's a lot of weeks with 10 hours per week singing, and new stuff all the time. Although he loved his excellent high school ensemble and mostly enjoyed All-State (weird being kept indoors for three days!), he feels that church singing was definitely where he learned how to sight sing really well.</p>
<p>I don’t know if this thread is still alive but I have a slightly different question. I see the level of expertise that is needed to make it in All State Orchestra or Band for say violin or Flute. It requires hours and hours of practice and training while I see kids making it into All State Chorus with just a decent voice. I don’t see that same level of musicianship needed. Am I wrong in my assumption or is it true that chorus students are held to a lower standard? And is opera singing a different league from sing in a chorus?</p>
<p>Singing as an operatic soloist is a very different thing from singing in a chorus. An opera singer is looking to be heard over perhaps a hundred instruments and several other opera singers. A chorister is trying to produce a blended sound with a bunch of others. Those training to be operatic soloists are often discouraged by their teachers from singing in choruses any longer than they have to to meet their ensemble requirements.</p>
<p>The level of musicianship for instrumentalists vs singers in honors ensembles is mostly determined by the size of the ensemble and the talent pool of the applicants. Violin and flute are both highly competitive instruments. I have known students to be accepted on other instruments who were nowhere near the level required for acceptance into the flute or violin sections. Singers tend to start serious instruction later on than violinists and flutists. They cannot put in as many hours of practice without risking injury to their voices. Voices tend to change a lot in the high school years, so singers are also trying to cope with learning to make music with an apparatus that changes a lot over time. Imagine what would happen with a violinist if their instrument went through a growth spurt and all of a sudden their notes were all in different places. (In effect, this happens when they switch from one fractional size violin to another and their playing generally suffers for a while until they get the feel of the new instrument. Most violinists auditioning for All State would have been playing a full sized instrument for a while and would not have to deal with that.) Male voices in particular undergo a huge change, potentially jumping from boy soprano to basso over a few months.</p>
<p>In part it is also a numbers game. An orchestra needs three or four flutes but the chorus may want forty or fifty tenors. There may be ten or twenty students auditioning for each of those flute chairs and, in a good year, perhaps one-and-a-half or two students auditioning for each of the available tenor slots in the chorus. The standards are set more by the ability of the applicants than by the judges. Of course, there is a level below which it makes more sense to leave the slot open than to fill it with someone that is clearly not qualified.</p>