<p>I’m reading this as a freshman engineering student at a top flagship. What would happen if we made it really hard for foreign students to be admitted- like undergrad? What is the advantage for US colleges to admit foreign students to engineering masters/ phd programs? If US students don’t need these degrees , why do US colleges offer them?</p>
<p>I know I am naive, but it seems like if it were more prestigious for US students ( or helped them het better jobs) they would go. If it isn’t then taxpayers (at public U’) are wasting their money. I don’t get it.</p>
<p>It sounds like US colleges do it for the money and the foreign students do it for the work visa. Were you planning on getting your masters, limabeans?</p>
<p>Happymom, #32, why are there almost no native born biotech employees at your H’s company? Are they biased against US citizens, is there an availability issue? It is not as though we lack in biology degrees here. I am assuming it is because the non-native folks cost less. Am I wrong?</p>
<p>Incredible amount of racism and xenophobia in this thread. How disappointing. **Characterizing an entire race as lazy and less intelligent - WOW, VLAD. **</p>
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<p>Its unfortunate your observations are so out of touch with reality, considering indian-americans have the highest average incomes in the USA because they emphasize education and get excellent jobs. Perhaps this is because America favors our lazy indian friends and subsidizes them?? </p>
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<p>@treetopleaf: a BS in biology with no experience is (almost) useless for a biotech company. Most of the valued functions in a biotech company require a very high level of education, technical understanding, and work experience. </p>
<p>A BS in biology would be able to carry out basic research at the very most - anyone of importance on the research, development, regulatory, and in most cases, even business-end of a biotech company would need an advanced degree … typically a doctorate, but masters at the very least. </p>
<p>@happymom: its likely that there are no foreigners in management because of the “glass ceiling” that exists in terms of qualifications - immigrants don’t have the communication skills or the cultural understanding of what is valued in a corporate setting.</p>
<p>@limabeans: US colleges offer engineering degrees because the USA needs engineers. Unfortunately, a BS in any engineering discipline is extremely rigorous and difficult. For those smart enough to complete the engineering discipline, there are better options - ex. medicine, banking, consulting, etc. Foreigners fill an important unmet need.</p>
<p>Biotech employs a huge number of people with PhDs plus multiple years of postdoctoral research experience. There just plain aren’t enough US-born candidates available. When Happydad was hired, he had ten years of research experience post PhD. For his group, that number is pretty typical. I think the least amount of post doc work was five years. Since these people are working on drug discovery, a BS or MS or even PhD without much post doc work just isn’t enough.</p>
<p>Since when has foreign been a race? There are people of all races living inside and outside the US. </p>
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<p>You completely misunderstood me. I am only talking about people from India. Not American citizens of Indian descent (which is what most people mean when they say Indian-American). These are completely different types of people.</p>
<p>My DH, a very non-political guy, was meeting a client yesterday at Goldman Saks. He was waiting for an elevator and just then some class got out. Out emerged about 150 kids, all in their mid-20s, and at least 80% of them were Asian. My DH joked it must have been a Quant class.</p>
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<p>Hey Lurker!!! Not at all sure where you found that out-of-context-quote. I haven’t been here for days and days. Nevertheless, how is what I said negative other than negative about engineering? (Although I don’t know why I was being anti-engineering. Guess that has to do with where you found this.)</p>
<p>Happy mom, thanks for replying. Let me ask this - could a bright US native bio major get the PhD, the post-docs, then expect to have little difficult getting hired by a biotech (assuming good qualifications)? Or are they selectively targeting foreign born people for some reason?</p>
<p>FWIW, I’m in a department of educational psychology now (a pure graduate department that houses PhD programs in School Psych, Counseling Psych, Special Ed, and Research and Statistics and Masters programs in Educational Technology), and I’ve been surprised by the high number of international students here. The international students seem about the same “quality” as the domestic students (i.e., mostly really, really smart and hardworking), and I really admire them for tackling a grad program in a non-native language–I know I couldn’t do it!</p>
<p>US Grad schools admissions practices [ I’m talking PhD level ] are entirely different than UG admissions. The country of origin is immaterial to the admissions committees or profs who have a big say in who they want to work with, thus statistically speaking, countries that have huge populations and produce a much larger number of tip top students than the US- [China, India] have a larger Grad school population.</p>
<p>I hate to say this, but I have seen a prejudice against American students here. I have seen and known of students with higher qualifications, including higher SAT scores and such, be turned down for admissions at places where all the Asian kids got in, even when they had lesser scores and qualifications. I live in an area with a large Asian population. Many of these kids have no extra curriculars or community service. Then, while plenty have fine SAT scores, even ones with lower scores are offered admissions places. If you take two applications, exactly the same. Then you put an Asian name on one, and an obviously Americanized name on the other, the Asian will be picked over the non-Asian. It is happening with grades in the schools too. I have seen English papers come through from Asian students with poor grammar (even though they were raised here, it is just typical laziness in the grammar, not poor English) and a skeletal paper, little effort made, and that student will be given an A. While the next student, of any other race, has turned in a well-written paper, it is is heavily scrutinized. </p>
<p>I do agree that the mere fact that if your bachelors was in EE, you probably don’t need a masters so that is why your education would end there. But on the other hand, in the community I live in, I have seen a lot of prejudice. They even use terms such as “an Asian A” here and openly make comments. I just saw a program where maybe 60% of the applicants were non-Asian, and everyone was in the top 400 were finalists and supposedly equally qualified on paper (test scores, essays, teacher recommendations, etc). There was a brief interview. They called them group interviews so it was more about seeing the person face to face. I was there. I did not see the interviews, but I was outside while everyone visited and we all had lunch and all. When the results came out, not one non-Asian person we know got in. 100% of the Asian people we know got in. I know for a fact that some of the non-Asians who did not get in had much higher test scores than some of the Asians who did get in. The admissions process was supposed to be based mostly on test scores as it was a gifted math program essentially. Now I worry that my non-Asian child is going to have troubles when applying to colleges.</p>
<p>“Many of these kids have no extra curriculars or community service.”</p>
<p>GRAD schools admissions committees dont care one bit about EC’s or community service. That is the subject of this discussion. They want the best brains period, especially for full funded PHD programs. </p>
<p>You are mixing apples [UNDERGRADUATE] and oranges[ GRADUATE] admission requirements and expectations .</p>
<p>Many Asian UG applicants are also full pay and that factor comes into play with UG admissions decisions- dont let anyone tell you otherwise.</p>
<p>“I hate to say this, but I have seen a prejudice against American students here. I have seen and known of students with higher qualifications, including higher SAT scores and such, be turned down for admissions at places where all the Asian kids got in…”</p>
<p>lmkh – You have made a lot of unfounded assumptions. Unless you work in the admissions department of ALL the schools that make these admissions, then you certainly don’t have facts. If you have facts that support your claims, perhaps you can post your sources.</p>
<p>"…even when they had lesser scores and qualifications. I live in an area with a large Asian population."</p>
<p>Are these the “non-American” Asian populations living as citizens in the US that are the root of the problem in creating prejudicial conditions against the real American populations?</p>
<p>White anxiety aside, menloparkmom makes a good point – at the graduate level it may come down to just pure academics and cash flow.</p>
<p>Firstly,you cannot classify an entire race as lazy and less intelligent. Also, since when are students in the sciences and engineering “lazy” (which is what many Indians decide to pursue). What evidence do you have to back this up? In fact, I would say that Indians are even smarter than Indian Americans since they do not have the communication advantage and must depend on their intelligence. </p>
<p>Are you a professor with experience with foreign students to make these comments?</p>
<p>In biotech, they don’t care if you are from Mars. If you have the experience and training they are looking for, you will get the interview. There are no “only foreigners hired” signs on the company doors.</p>
<p>I love this thread. It’s so natural for all of us to see our qualifications and not someone else’s and feel upset when the decision didn’t go the desired way. </p>
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<p>Not offended, but I really laughed at the comment that FOB Indians are lazy while their US raised offspring are not. You obviously haven’t been a fly on the wall of FOB parent-child arguments that’s played out every day.</p>