<p>@Bay - It sounds like you’re trivializing or downplaying incidents like these in other Greek houses because nothing of note happened while you were in your sorority. </p>
<p>Listen, I get it. Networking, an abundance of alcohol and a supposedly instant circle of friends in a community of like-minded people is what makes Greek life attractive to so many. But why won’t many who belong to it admit that there are issues within these institutions that can stand to be changed? At the end of the day, I don’t think there’ll be any end to this controversy because both sides feel so strongly about the other. For what it’s worth, I could pretty much tell which ones of my peers were going to become involved in Greek life—for all this “there’s a house for everyone” talk, there certainly is a type of person who’s attracted to this kind of lifestyle, and vice versa. </p>
<p>When this way of life is attacked by others who are opposed to it, it becomes personal, and that’s why I believe people so vehemently defend it. This thread is about an assault that occurred on a university campus, but now it’s getting spun into a different discussion: I sense that it’ll soon devolve into “would this have happened to the victim had she been invited to a dorm party”. </p>
<p>Hopefully we can all agree that UVA has a lot of evaluating to do—sweeping matters under the rug should not and cannot work as an alternative anymore. </p>
<p>How long can it take to get the names of all the student Fraternity members in that fraternity on that day and the officers. An hour at most? There also has to be a list of who was pledging at that time. </p>
<p>Furthermore, I have to believe that Jackie will tell the officers what she knows and her friends will to. That means that and law enforcement officer sharper than Barney Fife must know the names of most or all of the individuals involved by now.</p>
<p>Furthermore, these are very serious charges and Virginia has the death penalty. I think that a couple of those boys would be quick to accept a plea deal to tell all that happened in detail.</p>
<p>The facts are that there were too many witnesses to keep this quiet. If the story is true and those young men have any sense at all, they should be lining up outside the prosecutor’s offering to cut a deal.</p>
<p>The death penalty? I agree identifying these guys should be a no-brainer and Chief Longo is the guy to do it. In fact, if it’s not done already there may be something very wrong with the story. It’ll be interesting to see what happens.</p>
<p>No, I’m trying to keep people aware that 90% of rapes do not occur in fraternity houses. So people don’t forget about all of those victims in their pursuit of blaming it all on the fraternities.</p>
<p>At least one respected study shows that sorority women are much more likely to be raped than non sorority women. And at least two studies show that, statistically, fraternity men are more likely to rape than non-fraternity men. </p>
<p>And of course more reported rapes occur outside of frats. Most students don’t live in frats! DUH. </p>
<p>A study at the University of Oregon, reported [here[/url</a>], showed that women in sororities were much more likely to say that they had experienced an attempted or completed rape. Thirty eight percent (38%!!!) of the sorority members said that someone had tried to rape them, successfully or unsuccessfully. Fifteen percent (15%, also incredibly high!) of the other women surveyed said someone had tried to rape them, successfully or unsuccessfully.</p>
<p>I do think that alcohol consumption – either through irresponsibility or ignorance – contributes in the rape scenarios. But since frat culture is so linked to the culture of drinking, the three become intertwined. Greek system = culture of drinking = higher risk of rape.</p>
<p>And by the way, there’s nothing new in these findings. Some of the studies were initially done in the 80s and repeated today. With no statistical differences. </p>
<p>It’s always been that way. And we’ve always known it. </p>
<p>^yeah, the death penalty scenario is pulled from a TV show, not from real law enforcement.
However, if everyone cooperates, the guys should all be identified rather quickly - not just the guys who committed the rape, but also those who gave the “orders” or who was in charge then.
But didn’t someone say something (yeah, didn’t keep the source, might have been here) about that fraternity functioning like mobsters - that would imply a type of omertà and thus improbability that most of the brothers would talk, with a risk of retaliation too. If that “omertà” type behavior were to be found, what could be done?</p>
<p>The alleged crime is serious, and we don’t know if this particular crime happened. But we do know that when men gang rape, they don’t think they’ve done anything wrong. So if the allegations are true, the men involved might not talk because they don’t think there is anything remarkable to talk about. The victim of a gang rape will remember it the rest of their life, but the perpetrators think it’s no big deal.</p>
<p>Not to be too dramatic- I think I understand the psychology behind Omerta behavior when the people involved are 45 year old men with families, a livelihood which depends on ignoring or enabling illegal behavior (and sometimes engaging in it). There are both pragmatic and self preservation reasons to keep quiet. Nobody wants to think of their child being in danger because the “boss” thinks you’ve been disloyal.</p>
<p>This I understand.</p>
<p>But a 19 year old college man? Presumably who goes to college to get an education and get launched into the real world? What possible motivation would he have for keeping quiet if he knows (or has enabled and witnessed) that a friend has committed a crime?</p>
<p>But there’s another thread describing a town where two parents got into an argument because parent number 1 bought alcohol and served it to parent number 2’s underage kid, and parent number 2 called the HS to complain. A number of otherwise rational posters have said that parent number 2 was at fault for “ratting out” parent number 1.</p>
<p>Really? The parent behaving badly in this scenario is the one who objected to her kid being served booze in someone’s basement?</p>
<p>What kind of society have we become? Frat kids won’t rat each other. Parents are afraid to tell another parent, “Don’t buy my kid booze”. College adminstrators are more concerned with protecting each other’s jobs than protecting the kids who live on their campuses and pay their salaries.</p>
<p>“Oh, yeah, I watched seven of my fraternity brothers rape a freshman and I didn’t do anything or say anything to stop it or afterwards” is not exactly the most flattering thing someone can say about himself. Also it’s incriminating.</p>
<p>But who are these young men who then have to live with themselves after staying quiet? I would consider my parenting an abject failure if my son (who was in a fraternity, btw) worried about incriminating himself first and foremost. Let alone try to stop a crime in progress.</p>
<p>But men who gang rape think it’s fine to gang rape and they did nothing wrong. They convince themselves that she wanted it, because she drank one molecule of alcohol or showed one square centimeter of skin or didn’t pull out an Uzi and shoot up the fraternity.</p>
<p>“But men who gang rape think it’s fine to gang rape and they did nothing wrong. They convince themselves that she wanted it, because she drank one molecule of alcohol or showed one square centimeter of skin or didn’t pull out an Uzi and shoot up the fraternity.”</p>
<p>Do you think they think they did nothing wrong, or do you think they’re just secretly delighted that they got away with something that they know is wrong? Do you think they convince themselves that she really wanted it because she wore the short skirt (etc) or do you think they know darn well she didn’t want it and that the fact that she didn’t was kind of part of the turn-on / fun?</p>
<p>Not that I have any real desire to get in the heads of this pigs, of course. </p>
<p>Or maybe the truth is sadder: that they feel shame & horror at what they’ve done, but that they were too drunk to act rationally or too weak, psychologically, to resist peer pressure of their fraternity brothers?</p>
<p>It’s just so unfathomable to me; the Greek stuff I was aware of fell under “good-natured hijinks.” When we got engaged, my H’s fraternity brothers grabbed him and threw him in the lake. And knowing them, I’m sure they had towels on hand once he emerged :-). Wear a tie to class on Tuesdays. Go run an errand for a senior. Come up with pet names for other guys. Find out three facts about so-and-so. it’s really hard for me to wrap my head around this kind of bad stuff. But I guess I have no choice - facts are facts here. </p>
<p>I think the research shows gang rapists really have convinced themselves they did nothing wrong. If you look at other gang rapes that we know happened, the rapists don’t do much to conceal the rape. </p>
<p>Look at the Steubenville kids: not much secrecy there.</p>
<p>And look at what happened in the “Big Dan’s rape” in New Bedford: a woman was gang-raped in front of a bunch of men at Big Dan’s bar. Daniel and Michael O’Neill and their friend Bobby Silva were driving along the street, and saw the victim rush out of the bar half naked. Being normal human beings, they gave her clothes to cover herself up and took her to the police. They testified in the case. And for that they got ridicule and death threats, instead of being regarded as upright citizens doing what anyone should do. Evidently no one in the bar full of people thought there was anything wrong with a gang rape.</p>
<p>I certainly think the gang rapists don’t have a lot of interest in whether their sex toy wants what they are doing to her, though. The rape is a male bonding ritual. It doesn’t have much to do with her. They are showing off for the other guys. </p>