All UVa frats on suspension

<p>I think it would be illegal for the dean to call the police without the accuser’s consent. It would also be a huge betrayal of trust. Moreover, the police aren’t going to open an investigation without the accuser’s testimony.</p>

<p>If the University had a policy of unilaterally, immediately, reporting accusations to the police, all that would happen would be that victims would be even more reluctant to report. One horrible thing about rape is that it takes away the victim’s choice and agency. The last thing the University needs to do is take it away again.</p>

<p>I agree that the facts of the UVA incident are so shocking, they are almost beyond belief. Which is why my brain makes me believe Eramo when she says that many of the facts were not made known to her. It is quite possible that Jackie refused to name the perpetrators out of fear for her safety, in which case, there is literally nothing UVA could have done about it. If they picked up the phone to call the police, what would they say? A student reported she was the victim of a gang rape, but I can’t release her name, and she did not tell me who did it?</p>

<p>Anybody in authority who was aware of this incident in this fraternity and did not take active steps to close the fraternity permanently and immediately should be fired. </p>

<p>^^ The report mentions 9 rapists who were all being initiated into the fraternity at that point in time. It would probably take less than an hour to figure out who those 9 most likely were given the access to student records Eramo had/has… Just a thought.</p>

<p>Do we know that Jackie named the fraternity?</p>

<p>We don’t know what Jackie told the dean.</p>

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<p>Remember CF, we are stepping over a very low bar. A bar that is on the floor. Nobody has been kicked out of the school since when? </p>

<p>One person kicked out would be a step up.</p>

<p>Fraternities are a part, but only part, of the problem. As long as the costs and benefits they face don’t really change, they won’t change. Real change would occur if clever lawyers can place civil liability on the local and national officers of fraternities. Please, lawyers, get to work on this. Frats clearly have an effective lobbying and legal staff, but the threat of individual civil liability has a way of really changing people’s behavior. All-male social organizations with a combination of heavy reliance on alcohol and treating females more like objects than people are like pools of stagnant water – mosquitoes that can spread malaria or West Nile Virus are more likely to breed there than other places. So, to reduce the incidence of malaria or West Nile Virus, we drain the stagnant pools. Metaphorically, draining the frats will reduce the incidence of rape.</p>

<p>Disbanding single gender social organizations (frats and others) probably would make a big differences. In their current configuration, frats and their brethren has a pernicious effects of both encouraging this kind of behavior (though basic social psychological mechanisms), helping to protect perpetrators from punishment, and as some of you have pointed out, helping them behave with impunity. Making them coed might be better than disbanding them altogether.</p>

<p>Of course, as several of the articles point out, frats are only part of the problem. Reference the thoroughly misogynistic drinking song that used to be song until recently by the (coed?) Glee Club and at football games and the mural of the faculty member handing a female student her bra out the window as his wife comes in. Or the board appointing a Phi Psi (?) member to investigate the Phi Psi fraternity in which Jackie was gang-raped. I think the problem starts with the board. </p>

<p>If I recall correctly, there was a civil war at the board level earlier at UVa. I think the current president was thought to be too defensive of the existing status quo of UVa as a good liberal arts-y university and not assertive enough in changing the university to be more on the technological cutting edge. She was kicked out for a couple of weeks and then reinstated. It’s not clear how her opponents would have come down on the issue of rape either. She’s pretty much in favor of doing nothing to change the system to prevent rape or allocate responsibility for the failure of the system (without being forced by the shame of national press coverage). It’s not clear that her opponents on the board would do anything different. As far as I can tell, the board’s stance is something like: “a little rape’s OK as we don’t get in the news. And if we get in the news, let’s see if we can ride the storm.” </p>

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<p>The national frats have clever lawyers too. They have cleverly set up a system with 50-page manuals on how members should behave. Then, whenever they are sued, they say, “Why, we have rules against pouring an already drunk woman six double vodkas and then raping her when she passes out! This rogue fraternity member violated our rules, so we have no responsibility. Not our fault-- our manual specifically prohibits getting women drunk and then raping them! We are shocked, shocked that this happened.” No mention of the fact that many of their chapters violate their rules every week and they know it. </p>

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<p>You mean, just like in the dorms where the majority of rapes likely occur?</p>

<p>What is your point? Do people in dorms get to throw out other people who live in the same dorm? Do they choose the people in their dorm?</p>

<p>It’s so funny about this discussion. I remember the very same discussions more than 30 years ago while I was in college. Sorority women were regularly referred to as rape fodder. The very CULTURE of fraternities and sororities revolved around social situations that were consciously designed for overindulgence. And sexualization. That less-than-fully-consciously-consensual sex was likely to happen was understood by everyone and experienced by more than a few. Sorority women knew this. Sorority men knew this. We knew it then, we know it today. </p>

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<p>The university does. The university knows that the rules about drinking are broken daily in the dorms, and they know that the majority of rapes most likely occur in the dorms. Why aren’t people talking about holding university administrators personally liable? That is my point.</p>

<p>We can eliminate all fraternities, and there is no question that the 10% of the rapes that are occurring there now will no longer show up as occurring in fraternities. Will they go away? Who knows. Regardless, eliminating fraternity houses will have no effect on the 90% of rapes that are occurring in the victim’s residence (60%) or another non-fraternity residence (31%), which is what the information we have shows.</p>

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<p>I have never heard this, but apparently I must be an anomaly, since I lived in a sorority house with about 50 other women for two years. </p>

<p>Bay, except that dorm and private residencies don’t necessarily revolve around sanctioned situations geared to getting young women drunk to be exploited by young men. Fraternities and sororities, on the other hand, do this all the time. We all just choose to focus on their other agendas. Like forming “lifelong friendships” “future business contacts” and “community involvement.” </p>

<p>Yea. Right. Parties, liquor and hoards of pre-screened members of the opposite sex looking for experience and fun have nothing to do with it. It’s their raison d’etre!</p>

<p>Oh please, katliamom. Nearly ALL college social life revolves around men and women getting together in some form of relationship, most likely sexual. And most college students drink. The demonizing of Greeks, as if they have the corner on risky behavior is becoming old. Look at campuses with no Greek life, and you still find plenty of drinking and debauchery.</p>

<p>“The demonizing of Greeks, as if they have the corner on risky behavior is becoming old.”</p>

<p>I agree it’s old – like I said, I was in such discussions 30 years ago. I don’t think it’s demonizing, I think it’s calling a spade a spade. </p>

<p>I also believe that the Greeks INVENTED the corner on risky behavior. They made a science of it. They have a whole vocabulary for it!</p>

<p>It’s much safer for young women not to be associated with sororities or fraternities. You can choose dorms with a particular culture, but most frats are the same. For them it’s all about socializing with the “right” sort of person. </p>

<p>The fact that so many rapes occur outside of frats is mostly due to the fact that most students don’t live in frats. I believe rape exists to the extent that it does because we have a very unhealthy culture of drinking among the young. The idea is to get wasted, period. Binge drinking is fun! Add to that randy young men, less-than-aware young women and it’s a recipe for disaster. A recipe heartily, officially and publicly embraced by the Greek system to a far greater extent than elsewhere in the university setting. </p>

<p>“I have never heard this”</p>

<p>Yup. UC Berkeley 1976-1982. Sorority women as rape fodder was something that was discussed back then. But you know Bezerkeley. What do those crazy radical liberals know?</p>

<p>I’ll have to ask my cousin about that when I see her next. She was in a sorority there in the early 80s</p>

<p>LOL. Do that. I will be shocked, shocked when she denies it. As all apologists for the Greeks do. </p>