<p>obscuredfacts, are you honestly serious? I am an international applicant, and I was very much required to take the SAT, and I’m pretty damn sure it was me who sat down and took it. The toefl isn’t always necessary and is not substitutable for the SAT, it’s an extra expense actually. And WHAT advantage do we have? Absolutely none. And for good reasons, too. I mean, we’re not citizens in your country, we shouldn’t expected to be treated just the same as you guys. But to insinuate that we have an advantage, that’s ridiculous.</p>
<p>I guess obscuredfacts doesn’t let facts get in the way of a juicy post.</p>
<p>I’ve seen that students from the same high school tend to compete between themselves. There can be large swings away from the average, but given that you HS is competitive and well-regarded by the admissions committee, you’re probably competing with your classmates.</p>
<p>The reason is that the committee wants to promote geographical diversity as well as account for variation between high schools. The objective of national and international geographical diversity means that admissions process flows down and segments based on the state and county level. Combined with the the need to control variation in education quality, the admissions committee has a bias towards capping the number of students it accepts from one high school.</p>
<p>^ So schools have a somewhat quota?</p>
<p>beard tax: anecdotally, I’ve seen the opposite. No per school quotas. Wild swings (5 accepts one year, zero for the next few, then a smattering) not atypical. Can you cite examples or studies?</p>
<p>Sometimes it is dubious whether schools really don’t compare you largely to people from your high school or small area. They commonly establish an airy goal of good balance, so I think that might hurt kids from the same school. </p>
<p>Anecdotally, I know of a girl from my high school who was rejected by MIT a few years ago after her best friend was accepted. Her friend demonstrated generally inferior performance in standardized testing, grades, and academic competitions, neither played sports, and they participated in almost identical extracurricular/summer activities and coursework. Although MIT might not directly have discriminated on the basis of that particular school and association, it quite possibly discriminated in effect by ruling out an applicant with very similar experience to an admitted applicant.</p>
<p>Over the past several years, Duke has consistently accepted exactly one person from my school. I know of two instances of one kind of iffy ED applicant being accepted and at least one top student with unbelievably superior credentials (considering athletics, academics, volunteering, ECs, URM status, etc) being rejected on RD. </p>
<p>It’s possible that fairly mediocre schools are treated with caution, perhaps like any diversity consideration, so they are not explicitly grouped but get a supposed benefit that only applies for some standard safe number of applicants, which causes a sort of roundabout, implicit grouping.</p>
<p>From Harvard Admissions Website FAQ:</p>
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<p>They will not compare applicants with others from the same school so much as with others from the region. I think the admissions officers recognize that in any given school year, there could be particular talent in six candidates from the same school, while in another, there could be relatively yes. The fact that two from your school have gotten accepted each year seems to me to be pure chance and coincidence.</p>
<p>College counselors will examine the candidate in light of their extracurriculars, transcript, school profile, teacher recommendations, etc. But won’t so much compare you to other students at your school. For the Ivy league schools, they want to see that your counselor has checked you off as taking a “most rigourous” courseload, but if one person in your grade took 7 AP’s last year and has a higher rank as a result of a weighted GPA boost while you only took 4 AP’s in the same year, that doesn’t mean Harvard (or any ivy admissions) will look at you disfavorably. In fact, if you took only 4 AP’s (but still get the “most rigorous” box checked) and focused your other time on activities or classes you’re passionate about like, for example, band, art, or student council, that passion (if it shows through in your application) might boost your chances over the chances of the kid with 7 AP’s.</p>
<p>But just because one kid has 7 AP’s at your school doesn’t mean that Harvard admissions is going to compare other kids from the same school to that kid with 7 AP’s.</p>
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<p>I know someone who got likely letters from Stanford and Yale and got into Princeton and Harvard RD, MIT EA, UC Berkeley with Regents, as well as every other school he applied to, who was waitlisted at WUSTL. He was obviously overqualified for WUSTL so I think it’s just a dumb policy.</p>
<p>On the topic of this thread, my school one year had something like 14 kids get into Yale. The very next year 0 were accepted. The year after that 4 got in and 1 was waitlisted then accepted. So I don’t think Yale, at least, does it by school. Other colleges claim they do not as well.</p>
<p>actually, the entire world - don’t forget foreign exchange students!</p>
<p>If you look at the top schools, the percentage of students from a certain state seems to remain constant from year to year. It can fluctuate several percentage points but there haven’t been wild swings of 20-30%. I know it’s a leap of faith to take this data and extrapolate that admissions committees must evaluate candidates on a school wide basis. That’s not what I’m saying - my hypothesis is that geographic diversity and consequently the specific school you attend plays a large role.</p>
<p>First, the admissions committee is segmented based on geographic segments. Each officer is given a certain region that is based on historic enrollment trends - California is split among 2-3 officers while Delaware is grouped together with other Mid-Atlantic states. This structure itself means that there are historical geographic trends as well as state-wide biases in selecting certain students. Since counties and states vary so much in quality and competition, each admissions officer specializes in his or her region. </p>
<p>I’m sure that all the officers know about the differences between IB and AP, but how does one compare editing the school newspaper or leading of the debate team from school to school? What’s the reputation of the organization? The nuances inherent within each school means that admissions officers love to see meaningful national recognition for an activity. It also means that the officer needs to rely on relative indicators to understand performance.</p>
<p>Furthermore, this form of analysis has some merit based in statistics. Means and variance tend to stay constant over time. Hence, if the committee has an idea of the quality of the student body, it will rely on that historical data and select students accordingly. For example, I lived in a region where one HS sent 10-15 students to Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Stanford, and Yale. Admissions officers knew about the activities within the school, what being the editor meant and what leading the debate team entailed. The addition of academic information as well as SAT scores provided a compelling picture of potential, potential that was well supported by data.</p>
<p>On the other hand, my school was of mediocre flair. Out of 400 students each year, we sent 1-2 students to the entire Ivy League. Needless to say, we were off the radar of most admissions officers. However, I did the most that my school offered, even starting the AMC and Biology Olympiad competition and seeking funding from the school. I took 8 AP exams by the time I was a junior and received 5’s on all of them. I also had a 4.0 but that really didn’t mean much in my high school. I was rejected most of the Ivy League, even though I not only took advantage of all opportunities at my school, but also created some that had not existed. </p>
<p>The idea that the committee can account for the myriad variables resulting from attending different high schools is a myth. Thomas Jefferson High School will, on average, send a certain number of seniors to Harvard and MIT. Stuyvesant High School will, on average, send a certain number of students to Columbia. Grading schemes, leadership opportunities, and extracurricular activities vary so much among schools that it would be difficult to account for them. That’s why winning state and national competitions is emphasized so heavily. These competition may not have that much of a marginal difference if you’re valedictorian at Stuyvesant HS, but having Siemens Semi-Finalist on your resume can lend quite a bit of weight if you attend Podunk HS.</p>
<p>This is all very interesting…does anybody have anything to say re international school applicants ie from developing countries where the hs graduating class usually numbers <25 students? Does Harvard have a docket for these kids?</p>
<p>hi, i’m an international student from indonesia. i took the sat exam and got 2040 and 740 and 760 for math and physics subject tests subsequently, my marks are not bad, and i am pretty active at school. but, ut austin rejected my application. while my senior who had 1700 sat scores was accepted into the college. my senior also looked at my personal statement and said that it was good. why is that? and is there still any possibilities that i get accepted into either udab, umich, uc berkeley, or stanford? am a bit anxious here… i only applied to those 5 schools. can anybody help me?</p>
<p>sorry for the disconnected reply… just learned how to make a new thread…</p>