<p>I was comparing apples to apples…I quoted Luthers tuition/fees/room/board, not total COA. COA would probably be almost $45,000. I did the same thing for Iowa State…tuition/fees/etc.</p>
<p>You need at least a 34 ACT to get those top merit awards at Iowa. Not going to happen. Luther’stop merit award is $18,000. Believe me, I’ve run the numbers over and over at LAC’s and for high EFC families with good students but not top students (34+ ACT), flagships are almost always cheaper.</p>
<p>I guess I ran the numbers for the University of Iowa, not Iowa State. I don’t even live in Iowa and “get” that debate :).</p>
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<p>It only becomes an issue if spending on status items is somehow expected in the social environment of the area, so that someone who chooses not to spend in that way, or does not have the money to do so, is socially isolated.</p>
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<p>There are some that are relatively inexpensive even at list price, like University of Minnesota Morris and Truman State University.</p>
<p>There is a tuition/fees/room/board calculation and a total COA.</p>
<p>U Iowa tuition/etc $16,500
Total COA $21,100</p>
<p>iSU tuition/etc $15,000
Total COA $18,500</p>
<p>Luther tuition/etc $40,500
Total COA $44,000</p>
<p>Anyway you slice it, for 99.99% of high EFC families, state flagships will be cheaper. S would have to get a $23,000 merit award. Odds of that? not a chance, probably not even for those with really high test scores. When you start looking at higher priced LACs, the numbers get even worse.</p>
<p>^I agree. We looked into Truman, even with full out of state tuition there and zero aid of any kind, including loans, it is still less expensive than ANY state school here, let alone the flagship, even if you add in travel costs…</p>
<p>Most of the state schools in WI work out that way for us too (LAC state schools) because of reciprocity. </p>
<p>Haystack–I guess I am missing something with the math that if at Luther he qualifies for the top merit aid award bringing his cost down to $21,000 and Iowa State being $18,500 (total cost on IS website) but not getting any merit aid. You are taking $2500 difference then. Add in a local scholarship and most likely another scholarship from Luther and Luther costs less. Until you get the final aid packages, you won’t really know which one is less expensive so why the LAC hate?</p>
<p>Obviously assuming that the top merit aid is forthcoming from Luther. The 34+ on the ACT is in the VERY high category for merit aid for most LAC. Most we have looked into that ACT score has to be 28+, which a few in the 30+.</p>
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<p>What academic resources are we talking about?
Arguably the one that matters most is the professor’s time.</p>
<p>intended Major is a big factor in this discussion. At a lot of large researc:h universities, the first two years is full of 200-400 student classes the most popular Majors in Bio, History, PoliSci, English, Econ (or Biz if a major).</p>
<p>However, in smaller majors at large Unis … Chem, Physics, Anthro, Math, Linguistics, possibly Engineering, possibly Geography, Philosophy, etc. the classes get very small, very fast… almost always under 40 with most upper division around 20. I was Linguistics and knew everyone in the Dept. at UCLA. Sr. year I took four graduate courses, two of which had six students… five Masters students and me. Less popular majors at large Unis can feel like an LAC.</p>
<p>Were I a prospective Bio major, I would probably avoid the large research Unis, which tend to have a 15% or so quota on A grades through the first 2-3 classes, with little access to Professors or even TA, and no opportunity for discourse within the lecture.</p>
<p>Some comments regarding my post re: designer handbags and expensive foreign sports cars seem disingenuous. Carrying a $400 bag or driving a $40,000 car daddy bought for you are definitely personal statements about Family’s consumer aspirations and values. Please go read David Brooks’ books on US social class aspirations for clarification, if my comments seem wrong. But don’t pretend purchases and possessions aren’t indicators. Life is nor improved by purchase of status handbag or car.</p>
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<p>Indeed. But the only data point being given here is visiting a campus and seeing Mary walk down the street with her designer handbag. Sorry, you simply cannot conclude from there that Mary is a) materialistic, b) snobby, c) cares what bags other girls carry, and / or d) chooses her friends on the basis of their handbags. All you can say is that she likes herself a nice handbag.</p>
<p>My D at her LAC carries a Coach handbag she got for her 17th birthday - Coach isn’t really that high on the totem pole of designer bags anymore and hardly counts as “showy,” but whatever. It’s a great looking bag that I’m secretly jealous of (gray patent leather slouch), it goes with everything, it dresses up and dresses down nicely - it was a great gift from her grandparents and she’ll get plenty of use out of it. She has another Coach bag that she’ll transition into in warmer months. How can anyone draw any other conclusion about her other than she happens to be carrying a gray bag, unless they’re just a jealous, shallow person? The kind of people who would draw conclusions are people who are easily intimidated over nothing.</p>
<p>Luther’s top merit award is $18,000. He is not going to get anymore from Luther than that. The Luther net would be $26,000. Even if he did get a bit more, say $2,000, that leaves $24,000. To be brutally honest, I would choose a degree from Iowa or Iowa State over a degree from Luther any day of the week. And when it is $5,000 a year cheaper, not even a discussion.</p>
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<p>All that matters is that the person enjoys it. She doesn’t have to justify what she wears, drives, etc. to me or anyone else. Having the over-the-top oh-that’s-so-showy-they-must-be-shallow-people reaction to others who have nice things is, in and itself, a class signifier, IMO.</p>
<p>Does it matter if things are less visible than a designer bag? We took our kids to Europe for 3 weeks last summer as their hs graduation gift. Is that “better” than a designer bag? It sure cost a hell of a lot more.</p>
<p>Haystack–one thing that did occur to me is that I am assuming you live in Iowa, you are at a distinct disadvantage in that Iowa doesn’t participate in any reciprocal agreements with other states. That limits you to the Iowa State schools for 'instate" tuition. I can see where LAC would be at a disadvantage for you specifically. In our case, if our kids wanted to go to Iowa State, that school would end up costing twice as much as any LAC, assuming merit aid which at the schools we have looked at would be there, but not at the 34 ACT level.</p>
<p>As for the value of the Luther Degree vs State UI degree-we can argue that until the cows come home but it boils down to individual programs. Anyone in the music field, for example, would be much better served at Luther but if you are going into engineering, why bother looking anywhere BUT Iowa State in your case.</p>
<p>Our kids have ruled out all of the state schools in MN because they are either too big or don’t have the programs they want. State schools in Iowa, for us, then become equal to any LAC and quite frankly, other than UI or IS, the other Iowa State schools don’t measure up to any of the LAC we have explored–but, having said that, we are going to visit UNI because it is still a good school and has most everything DD wants-which has been somewhat hard to find in the midwest. Very concerned, however, that it is a big suitcase college so again, we will see.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl, you’ve not spent much time at New Trier, have you? Coach doesn’t make the designer list anymore.</p>
<p>By isolated, I mean that you can walk around large parts of the campus and not remember you are in a city. That’s one of it’s attractions. It’s definitely easy to get to the city. There’s a whole range, Columbia and U of Chicago have pretty defined campuses, but there’s not nearly as much green as Vassar has. On the other extreme are places like GW and NYU where it’s almost impossible to tell college buildings from office buildings.</p>
<p>Pizza, no one said owning a coach bag is the issue, it is the ATTITUDE that you see on some of these campuses that go along with HAVING to have EVERYTHING designer…that is a big difference.</p>
<p>My DD got a coach bag in 8th grade from grandma. She liked it for about 3 months, it’s on the floor in her closet under the pile of clothes in there. At the time, it was the “in” thing for 8th grade girls to have. They all got them for Christmas, and pretty much nothing else, and most of them figured out pretty quickly they could have gotten a lot more for the same money. None of them use those coach purses any more. Again, it’s the ATTITUDE.</p>
<p>Another example, one girl we know, threw a FIT when her parents were going to give her a 2 year old car, Toyota Corolla, for her 16th birthday. She MADE them get her a brand new Ford Mustang, which she promptly totaled 2 months later. Second hissy fit later, another brand new car after not talking to her mom for a month because they suggested getting a used car again. Her mom died of cancer 6 months later. Yes, EXTREME story, but just pointing out the difference of appreciating something of quality vs HAVING to have it because of social pressures.</p>
<p>mathmom–that is the exact kind of campus DD wants. Being in a rural or semi-remote area would be ideal but a couple schools she has looked at are in larger towns but once you are on campus, you would never know it.</p>
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<p>Umm, okay. I’m not going to address what it may or may not say about someone’s values. What it doesn’t necessarily say is, “I value these things and I will only associate with people who similarly value and can afford these things.” That’s a lot to assume based on the purse someone carries or the car she drives.</p>
<p>And, mncollegemom: The example of the girl who threw a fit because she wanted a Mustang instead of a Corolla is simply an example of how some kids can be brats. Maybe some kids who have BMWs are also brats. Maybe some of them are real nice people. Maybe there are also jerks driving 15-year-old, rusty Honda Civics. </p>
<p>On the question of whether a state flagship is almost always going to be cheaper, that’s not the case for Illinois, with a resident COA from $28,000 to $33,000. At that price, we could get just about as good a deal at some neighboring state flagships! I have never spoken to a single U. of I. alum who hasn’t said wonderful things about his or her university experience. But I know my D would have a hard time at a school with 32,000 undergraduates. Would she figure it out? Maybe. Probably. But if it costs about the same as (maybe more than) a good LAC? And if it’s in Champaign-Urbana? No way. And, btw, by “good LAC,” I don’t necessarily mean top 20 or even top 50. I mean “good” as in right for my D, places where I feel confident she’ll get the kind of personal attention that will help her learn. Does everyone need this? I think my D does. So does she!</p>
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<p>The professor’s time matters, but so does the context in which it’s available. Program and course offerings, research opportunities, internship and job placement, and access to professors doing high-level research and publishing are more likely to be available at a state flagship than at a mediocre small private LAC. Of course, there are some very expensive and selective LACs that offer everything.</p>
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<p>Ouch, NJSue! Lots of people will think you are talking about their kid’s choice and get defensive. I don’t even want to get into the question of what makes a particular school mediocre and another one good or great. I’ve been involved in some threads recently where those kinds of discussions got pretty contentious. Fisticuffs probably would have been involved had people been interacting in real life. 
No one could seriously argue that there is equal “access to professors doing high-level research” at most LACs (barring the most elite). But that’s not what LACs are for. In addition, there are LACs within reach of good but not crazy-qualified students where students are encouraged to do their own research. And where they send kids into PhD programs in high numbers based on their LAC preparation. My D will probably land at one of them (Kalamazoo College). Ranked 68 by U.S. News in case anyone’s doing the math!</p>