<p>I don’t like to mention specific colleges for precisely the reasons you mention. Incidentally (not that my opinion matters), I consider Kalamazoo a very respectable school. But I am also a realist. I also work at a college that I would consider a “mediocre” one. It serves a certain student population quite well. But it’s not a place I’d want my D to attend. There are hundreds of regional LACs and master’s level unis that, in my view, offer a real and seldom acknowledged tradeoff between cost and opportunity for a reasonably good student who can either get merit aid, or go to the state flagship.</p>
<p>I understand where you’re coming from, NJSue! Also, I have a soft spot in my heart for Rutgers, because one of my favorite older friends went there as did one of my idols: Ozzie Nelson.</p>
<p>NJSue–perhaps stepping away from your mediocre college and exploring some of the 100’s of fantastic, and quite challenging LAC’s around the country might change your point of view. Also, the fact that a student has LIMITED access to a top researcher at a Flagship makes a difference for what .0005% of incoming freshman across the nation. Most of the Flagships have VERY limited opportunities for UNDERGRAD research, 20 spots out of 30,000 kids maybe?? Every LAC we have looked at has research opportunities for almost all of the freshman that want spots. “Top” research is also subjective and does happen as LAC as well.</p>
<p>Thanks but I’m quite familiar with the landscape of higher ed in this country. I’m not quite sure what your objection is to my comments. There are good LACS, mediocre LACS, and bad LACs. Who can seriously dispute this? Furthermore, I pointed out earlier in this thread that some LACs do have excellent research opportunities for undergraduates. I know, however, that schools of any type that practice heavy and habitual tuition discounting (i.e. half the class gets merit aid) are not generally academic powerhouses. Sorry but that’s a fact.</p>
<p>W/exception of engineering and business schools, undergraduate experience at UiUC does seem overrated for the TYPICAL UIUC undergrad. I’m hearing from many unhappy parents of unhappy students. Too many kids are forced to enroll for five-years minimum to complete major requirements, because school is overcrowded. And many classes are VERY large. Friends’ sophmore son had a 2000+ student lecture class this year, in addition to several classes his 1st and 2nd years that had hundreds of students. TA instructors for $32,000/year? Overcrowding? Rundown facilities, particularly dorms? Underfunded programs due to Illinois’ severe budgetary problems? Don’t think UIUC warrants its stellar accolades anymore.</p>
<p>NJSue–there are good, bad and mediocre “flagships” as well…</p>
<p>Logic would suggest that if your school is attracting top students from around the country and they meet your base requirements for merit aid, say 3.7 GPA and 30 ACT minimum, that your school would be very academically challenging. If 50% of your students met that, how could it not be?</p>
<p>No, Higgins, I don’t live anywhere near New Trier, and I’m quite aware that Coach isn’t ooh-la-la anymore, which is specifically why I said “Coach isn’t really that high on the totem pole of designer bags anymore and hardly counts as showy, but whatever.”</p>
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<p>Sure. But that’s independent of the actual designer handbag (or other accoutrement). You can be a snob with a $40 handbag from a Target, or a perfectly nice down to earth person with a $400 Coach bag. What’s being discussed here are observations being made when walking around campuses - that such-and-such college attracts snobby, materialistic people who only care that their friends own designer handbags, etc. And I call b.s. that such behavior is observable when you’re just standing behind someone in the student bookstore or sitting in on a class. Look, one college we visited - GWU - I noticed a <em>lot</em> of designer wear, on both guys and girls. That didn’t mean that everyone who wore something nice was a snob or elitist. It just might mean that they dressed particularly well. Nothing wrong with that.</p>
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<p>Right. But that doesn’t make a Ford Mustang indicative of anything. So why is a BMW? All you know about someone who drives a BMW is that they have a BMW. That’s it. You know nothing about their values or character.</p>
<p>mncollegemom, colleges that already “attract top students from around the country” don’t need to offer merit aid to half their students to entice them to come. Schools that WANT to attract such students do so. When colleges become more competitive and selective, their “merit aid” becomes much stingier and they make the transition to offering primarily need-based aid. </p>
<p>Colleges are businesses. Businesses don’t offer discounts on their product unless they need to move the product. Merit aid is a sale price.</p>
<p>pizza–plenty of us have spent time around campuses, college and high school, where the ATTITUDE toward HAVING to have these things is prevalent. THAT is the issue that you can’t seem to understand. The 16 year old at Abercrombie with the $1200 worth of clothing who is whining because she wants MORE is the issue, not that she is wearing an Abercrombie t-shirt (witnessed this a lot at the Mall of America).</p>
<p>mncollegemom,</p>
<p>I don’t think anyone would argue that there are kids who whine and pout when they don’t get what they want. What pizzagirl is saying, as I’m reading it, is that you cannot conclude that someone is a whiner and a pouter based on clothing or cars or accessories or whatever. You certainly can’t conclude anything meaningful about the character of a whole campus based on the mere presence or even the preponderance of Abercrombie & Fitch t-shirts (or whatever other external marker you choose). </p>
<p>Or, more to the point, you can conclude what you want, but you might be surprised. I’d rather give people the benefit of the doubt until I can determine, based on knowing something about them other than what they’re wearing, whether I think they’re worth my time. One of my favorite colleagues is a woman who wears precious little pastel suits that I would never, ever wear. They may be expensive. I have no idea. She is the anti-me in appearance and style, but I adore her.</p>
<p>In case anyone wonders where I’m coming from on the subject of handbags, this morning I pointed out a woman to my daughter and said, “Look, that lady has my purse!” She was carrying a Trader Joe’s bag (one of their nicest and most colorful). Don’t ask about my clothing.</p>
<p>I can really only comment on the state schools here in FL (most are pretty large), but they all have honors programs that make them feel smaller for the kids that qualify. Honors dorms, priority registration, honors sections that get them out of the large intro classes, funds for summer research and abroad programs, advanced placement, etc. Of course, not all teh schools are the same, but my sense is that these honors programs do go far to customize the experience. Parents and kids I know seem pretty satisfied. It’s also very affordable given the level of funding available to honors level students through the Bright Futures Scholarships. </p>
<p>I would guess some if not most states have similar situations, no?</p>
<p>Honors programs at flagships are indeed a good value. They minimize many of the downsides of a huge state school while retaining the advantages. My D was accepted to Rutgers SAS Honors and it changes things for us. While we would never insist that she go there to save money, there is no doubt that Rutgers has all of a sudden become much more appealing than it was.</p>
<p>absweetmarie–but the original post that started this said that the culture of the college was such that you had to have these things to fit in—that is quite different than just carrying a coach bag that you got from Grandma for Christmas. Yes, taken out of context was Pizza was saying is correct but she didn’t address the full issue of the original post and that was the attitude of the people that feel they NEED those things.</p>
<p>NJSue–yes, colleges are a business and one of the biggest marketing tools they all use is that 25% of our freshman class were valedictorians and 50% of our class were top 10% in their high schools. There are plenty of schools out there with these stats that offer generous merit aid and are very good schools.</p>
<p>Private schools that offer a lot of merit aid to a lot of students cannot remain solvent for long without a) changing their merit aid policies to become more restrictive before they go bankrupt or b) relaxing their admissions standards to get more warm bodies to pay the bills. They may have some strengths and they may offer good opportunities to certain students. I stick by my contention that private schools that practice heavy tuition discounting are relatively weak academically in comparison to schools that do not pursue this practice.</p>
<p>My point is that heavy tuition discounting is not a sustainable practice for a college; it is a transitional strategy for lesser colleges hoping to jump into the next tier. Sometimes it works, and sometimes, it doesn’t.</p>
<p>NJSue–you are discounting happy alum in your thinking…big endowments=big scholarships for students</p>
<p>Honors colleges at flagships can also be seen as a marketing device - a way of not losing high stat kids by offering them certain perks. S1 looked at an honors program that offered a special honors dorm, certain small classes, etc. He ended up at a top LAC, and I’m glad he did. Fortunately, he received decent financial aid. We still pay a bit more, but the difference is well worth it as far as I’m concerned. For a full pay kid, I can see how the flagship honors college option would start looking a lot more attractive.</p>
<p>I think the original post that pizzagirl reacted to was #62, in which higgins2013 specifically cited Northwestern as a place where it seems the “girls all shop Saks’ handbag department,” contrasting that with the wholesome values of Midwest LACs where he or she was “relieved by the absence of designer handbags and other ‘rich girl’ accouterments.” Anyway, that’s what I’ve been reacting to. Did higgins2013’s D do an overnight at Northwestern and find evidence that handbag preferences translated into overweening competition? Or did it just SEEM that way based on the most cursory experience of the campus? Absent evidence, it’s just so much stereotyping. And even if higgins2013 saw evidence of bad behavior or attitudes (i.e., “There was this one girl who sneered at my D and smacked her with a Gucci bag …”), I’d be careful about concluding that the bad behavior and the purse were somehow linked!</p>
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<p>Can you clarify the connection between merit aid and endowments? Most schools with big endowments provide excellent need-based financial aid, which is a totally different thing from merit aid/tuition discounting.</p>