<p>"suspect part of the reason teachers assign group papers and group presentations has nothing to do with cooperation. "</p>
<p>that may be true, but the teacher did, in fact, keep her word and hold all four students to the same guidelines. I respect her for that.</p>
<p>what have my Ds learned from group projects:</p>
<p>who has good food
who has annoying little brother
who to NEVER work with again on a group project
what projects are a waste of time, and busy work
who to WANT to work with
who is bossy, lazy, dingy, organized, etc
and that they, my two Ds, will usually have to organize the projects even though they try and not do that, as they ALWAYS do that....but they see it falling apart, so they have to step in and do the phone calling, the assigning, etc.....</p>
<p>what the other kids learn that don't do much of the work, eh, they learn they can get away with that alot of the time because others will step up and tak care of business</p>
<p>my D came home the other day and said, mom guess what I just found out? that kids LOVE being on group projects with me, cause they know the work will get done....</p>
<p>I had to laugh at my D. the other day. She is a senior in college and was in a group project to train and care for a yearling horse. There were 5 or 6 students assigned to a horse and of course many tasks to be done daily. As no one was stepping up and making an organized chart of who was to do what and when--my D. took it upon herself to organize it and then distribute the duties (telling them if their time slots didn't work , to trade with someone)</p>
<p>Well, 1 of the girls came to her and said that the group decided she was a b****. And they didn't like her being so bossy.</p>
<p>Guess my D. let them have it. Pointed out that she waited 2 weeks and no one had done anything, the animal would be the one to suffer (plus of course the group grade), that she really didn't care what they thought of her--the point was to get the job done, and lastly to all those who were too cowardly to speak up themselves--she had no respect. Yeah, no shrinking violet here!</p>
<p>Maybe all those years of being frustrated with group projects in MS and HS just boiled out all at once ;).</p>
<p>My older daughter has had several group projects in college, but she has found that they are WONDERFUL compared to high school group projects. She has found that most of the students are highly motivated and eager to do their fair share of the work.</p>
<p>I think there is a big difference between "group projects" at the college level (or maybe even high school level) that are truly project based. They replicate real work experiences for most people. Learning to work together, distribute work among the group members, present clearly as a group - these are all critical learning experiences.</p>
<p>However, that experience is not to be confused with posters, collages, dioramas, arts and craft science classes, or any of that dumb busy work. They are nothing more than unnecessary decorations for classroom walls.</p>
<p>Having read through all the posts, I finally came to Roshke's post and I concur that one reason for assigning these group projects is so that kids who don't do well on tests have a chance to shine. I actually asked a teacher about this once and this was the answer I was given. We DETEST group projects. In 6th grade my oldest son had a particular group project assigned and was not allowed to select the members of his group. Kids were permitted to "latch on to" groups. My S wrote about 3 pages (single spaced) for the group report, and another member of the group (hereinafter refered to as "student D") wrote one paragraph. When the teacher asked my S what he had learned from the project my S replied, "I learned that "student D" is much smarter than I realized he was." When the teacher asked my S to explain he said, "Well, he was smart enough to latch onto my group." Agreed that it was a wise*ss answer, but the teacher knew it was the truth. For that particular project, I also had to drive all over town to round up the other members of the group to bring them to the town library to work. Did I mention that we DETEST group projects of any kind? Even in college my S had one semester in an Intro Economics course where the professor insisted that the problem sets be done in groups. My S, who was very familiar with the course material having taken AP Economics, called and said, "What am I supposed to do? I could whip through these problems by myself. Do I sit there and do all the problems for the group, or do I withhold information from them? I don't want to behave like an *ss."</p>
<p>I'm actually one who liked my kids science fair projects. They came up with interesting ideas and I learned something I didn't know from everyone of them. That said I know exactly what everyone means about excessive parental input. My son had one group project at school that I thought worked just the way it was supposed to. In 7th grade his English teacher got a grant to have small groups put together magazines. They had to write resumes and cover letters asking for various jobs. (Editor, art editor etc.) The teacher put together the groups and they did almost all the work at school. The teacher told any kid who didn't pull their weight would be fired. (One was from my son's group - he was given other work.) They came up with themes for the magazine and each kid wrote two articles a long and a short one and each kid contributed at least one piece of filler. They also sold a few ads. The results were amazing and the headaches for me - were nil.</p>
<p>
[quote]
have no concept of exactly how much time it takes to complete their projects
[/quote]
I'm convinced of this. A synopsis:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>Teachers have no idea how long it takes to complete the project</p></li>
<li><p>Teachers have no idea that parents are making night-time runs to the craft store for poster board, etc. and that parents and kids have to figure out how to get together after-hours</p></li>
<li><p>Teachers know that the group project will 'pump-up' the grades of the low-performers allowing the teacher an out to not fail the kids who should be failed </p></li>
<li><p>There must have been a decade or two where teachers were taught to teach the 'touchy-feely artsy way' since it's so pervasive</p></li>
<li><p>Teachers who have had their own kids have to do group artsy projects are less inclined to require the projects in their own classes because they've seen the light</p></li>
<li><p>Grading of group projects are easier for the teacher</p></li>
<li><p>Too many teachers can't distinguish between the project the kids did versus the parents and will reward those who had their parents do the project</p></li>
</ul>
<p>I started a thread on this topic recently.<br>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=241684%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=241684</a></p>
<p>Here is my question: is there a solution at the administrative level? Should someone at the school be informed about what is happening?</p>
<p>Agree with all the above posts, especially group projects, which we loathed.</p>
<p>"Cooperative Learning" was the buzzword when my D was little. In her second grade class, they were assigned groups to "study" the spelling words together. Then they were tested, and group grades were posted as well as individual (teacher did say only individual would count). But my poor D was beside herself when people in her group failed. She felt like it was her fault. I remember her saying, "Mommy, I tried to help X, but he failed anyway." She was near tears. She was seven.</p>
<p>I agree that teachers give high grades to work (projects and regular) that clearly had a huge input of parental "help" or even more than just "help". This shortchanges the children whose parents cannot help, due to other responsibilites, or believe in keeping help to a minimum and not crossing that line that goes into cheating. I suspect that teachers "help" their own kids, and that today's teachers just see a lot of "help" as the norm.</p>
<p>Its interesting how much uniformity of opinion there is on this point.</p>
<p>And yet the projects are likely to keep coming.</p>
<p>I wonder if anyone familiar with the upper-end prep schools has any observations on how often they are assigned projects, especially in the upper grades??</p>
<p>Also, weenie has hit a nail on the head. I think one of the reasons for these projects is that it is regarded as de rigeur to have "displays" of work in the classrooom, even at the upper levels. That way you can say, "Hey, forget about those scores that measure us against others......take a look at these swell posters!!" :)</p>
<p>^ I don't know about upper end prep schools, but I will say that in the 9 years we've had kids in our local Jesuit middle school/high school there has only been one project assigned - that was from a bio teacher who had just come from the all-girls Catholic high school. I can't recall the boys even doing the project, just joking about it. When my second son had him there were no projects assigned. </p>
<p>I will say the walls are basically bare at the school (certainly compared to other schools I've been in). The bulletin boards are strictly business - postings for sports stuff, volunteer information, guidance office. (There is some art class work hanging in certain halls, as well as large murals certain art kids are allowed to paint on the walls.)</p>
<p>I was sitting in our town high school one day for a competition my son was in and it was FULL of projects on the walls. There were maps, collages, and family trees complete with photos. They were remarkably well done! I looked at them and they were ALL signed by girls - I'm not kidding, every one of them. I wondered what happened to the boys' projects. Ha!</p>
<p>I love this thread and the opportunity it provides to vent about what is surely my biggest pet peeve about what kids are asked to do in school. To say my son is artistically challenged is to create one of the kindest euphemisms ever. To his credit, he usually insists on doing his own "art" work as an assertion of independence and responsibility. However, he almost invariably suffers grade-wise as a result. He has lost entire grades because of things like not using enough colors on a poster (!), which in turn affects his GPA/class rank, which in turn will affect his college admissions prospects...</p>
<p>I only recall a few "group" projects in HS. When S got to chose the co-workers, things seemed fine. I recall filming the kids' skit and helping them come up with costumes. It was the middle school group projects that were annoying, with some kids doing nothing and/or needing to be babysat, fed, and then driven home.
Currently, my HS student has only had 2 art projects but several powerpoint presentations. I think that could be wave of future.</p>
<p>patient: Sorry, I was not trying to co-opt your thread. The problem with my daughter's projects is not that all of them are group projects--only one was. The real problem is just that they are so comprehensive. For math she had to create a golf course with a theme, use three angles of specified measurement on each hole, graph it on graph paper, use 30 vocab words in describing it, and make a poster with the course laid out using the theme (did I forget anything?) For English, as one project, she had to complete a scrapbook or other arrangement of her life's primary sources, write an essay on someone in the profession she is thinking about in essay, not research paper form, and make a creative map of where she plans to go with her life. For geography, it was to plan a 14 day tour to 5 countries of Europe with a brochure that included all travel arrangements, meals, tours, etc. set forth on a detailed itinerary with other ancillary questions to be answered. And the latter two were due the same day---each to count a mandated 20% of her grade. The exam in each of these courses is mandated to count 20%, too, so 40% of a 9 weeks grade is determined by the one exam and the one project by mandate. Ridiculous. If the projects are to benefit alternate learning styles, then why can't they be offered in the alternative, with an old-fashion research and write alternative for those who are so inclined?
And MAP, the grade point average/class rank thing is exactly why I am afraid to "buck the system" too much here. This is a new curriculum imposed this year, so I am hoping they will listen to some negative feedback. We chose this school for our youngest after MUCH consideration, and I had no idea this wonderful "guaranteed curriculum" was even on the table. I wonder how the schools would like it if the colleges added a question to their recommendation forms that asked about how much of the grade was substantive and how much depended on art work and projects?????
Finally, I think the projects definitely benefit the girls who seem more willing to put up with the BS. Many of the boys in my daughter's classes either just did not do them or turned them in several days late.</p>
<p>csshsm, is this a private school? Not only are the projects extensive, the themes--golf courses, European vacation--are so upper/middle class.
Again, I'd try to organize the protesting parents and allow an alternative mode, e.g. powerpoint, to substitute.</p>
<p>Agree with the powerpoint alternative, bookworm. DD loves using it, but a few of her friends do not have it at home, which means they come to our house to use our computer.</p>
<p>Wow, csshsm, you got more than your fair share! I agree with you that if the point is to accommodate "different" learning styles, then give the students a choice. Make a poster or write a poem, build the diorama or write a report, construct that 3D chemistry model or show the derivation of an equation, etc. </p>
<p>I have one kid who is an artsy visual learner and one who is more auditory and book oriented, I think. Even my visual learner has grown to hate the artsy school projects, so the process must be defective in some way. She is exactly the kind of person who should embrace these projects, but they are just a p.i.a. for her.</p>
<p>chhssm--no problem at all, I didn't think of it that way, just that I am relieved that I am not the only one who is fretting/venting about this! It continues to be a major problem in our household and I am trying to figure out if there is anything to be done about it, as in bringing it to the administration's attention. I always wonder how much inter-departmental discussion there is and whether one department knows that projects have been assigned in one or two other classes too, sometimes overlapping. </p>
<p>I find it ironic in our instance as it is junior year and all the talk is about the amount of stress the kids undergo in this year, and yet the school is adding to it by piling on these time-consuming and in my opinion only marginally--if that--educational projects (group in our case).</p>