"America’s new aristocracy" and "An hereditary meritocracy"

Parents Forum
141

“Where are they going with that? Most of the issues with education and success begin at home. This sounds a bit like the city-state of Sparta where the kids are taken away from the parents and raised by the community. Is that what they want? … it’s very difficult to overcome the effects of home.”

I agree with this. The government (government schools, that’s what public school are) keeps trying to either deny this or create “programs” to overcome it --and to a degree, some of the latter can have an effect, but not in any model of efficiency and economy. Years ago, there was a poster active on CC named Drosselmeier. He and I (and obviously others) had many conversations about this issue. Drosselmeier, an African American, had homeschooled his children, and they had very successful admissions results: both were admitted to Ivies; I know the girl went to Princeton; I don’t remember if the boy did, too, but someone with a memory like jym626’s might remember. Note one important fact that he HOMESCHOOLED them, and in that homeschooling was heavily involved in curriculum, teaching, resources, assessments. They were being given what no public school in his mid-west metro region would have given them: a superior education, especially access to advanced vocabulary. In other words, they were “privileged.”

As the most major conversation was winding down about that, I mentioned on one of those threads that given all the research about this --not to mention what those of us who have worked in public education can see --educating undereducated parents is essential to breaking the achievement ceiling in children from poverty and other limitations. This is true even for beginning readers; children do not fare well when there are no books at home and parents do not read. But later, it is very difficult to understand more advanced concepts without an advanced vocabulary, because the two are interrelated. Those of us whose parents used advanced vocabulary at home mostly breezed through school. And of course that’s because utility with words (and the concepts connected with those words) must be practiced regularly to become fluent with both; the practice cannot be limited to the school day.

142

I just saw PG’s post, and I do get the “leap” because I just quoted it, and no, lol, I didn’t hurt myself, speaking for myself. :))

143

“If you come from a working class or poor background, and you are considering going to college or just doing well in school, then you have to deal with the fearful consequences of success (leaving everyone for the unknown of college and the middle class)”

I wonder to what extent different subcultures exist, though. As an anecdote, my parents grew up in similar lower-working-class environments from a socioeconomic standpoint (her father a steelworker with 2 jobs, his father an owner of a small mom-and-pop deli), but my mother came from a very disciplined subculture where doing well in school was prized / admired - even if one wasn’t going off to Penn (the Harvard of the area), it was still praise-worthy to get A’s, study hard, listen to the teacher, go to night school, etc. and my father came from a very undisciplined subculture where studying hard was for the nerds and the grinds and the real movers and shakers were out on the streets. Very, very different subcultures within the same general (low) socioeconomic status.

144

I don’t know whose quote that is Pizzagirl is using, but I’m not so sure about how much of a real concern that is. First of all, if you talk to people who have made a transition, the great, great majority of them were saying “Get me the heck outta here…” as opposed to “Gee…I’m so afraid to leave…”
Secondly, fear of failure is minor, minor compared to how successful people think. Sure, if your definition of success is something grandiose, you might “fail” to reach that, but hard work and education can hardly fail to result in a better life and hence, success.

145

I’m sure there are variations, PG, but I think both the article and the poster are speaking to trends. In most lower-class neighborhoods you often have the syndrome of achieving teens hesitant to stand out from their non-achieving peers (which is why charter urban schools single out selected high-achievers with the hope of literally removing them from the environment – sending them to east coast boarding schools). At the local charter urban school, the culture is high achievement; in the neighborhood, the culture works directly against that. So, speaking of leaps, they leapfrog the students out of the environment.

But the second part of the double whammy is family, which is what the poster you quoted addressed, i.e., not parental education now, but simply family ties. In certain poor subcultures, such as urban black and undocumented immigrants from Latin America, family is super important, and I have seen case after case of the student making an aching choice to stay nearby – and sometimes that is for financial support! (as well as, obviously, the emotional ties/support). As to financial support, one might say, Why not move out and send home money? But by staying with family for an extended period, the young person is able to save more money to support that family than if he established a separate residence.

Not so easy to survive in 21st century First World without some Already advantages. If there’s a culprit, perhaps it’s the inflated housing market, a trend which really took off in the '80’s, I guess.

146

Funny thing how people disagree if being born of well off parent is luck or not.
I consider it luck, but I can see how others can say that it is just genetics, not luck.

I guess it comes from what you think a person is. I think it comes from confluence of biology, genetics, and the magic of self-awareness, some may call it soul. Could the same self aware entity have been born into another body? Interesting thing is that I am mostly atheist.

147

Off and on for years, I have run programs for freshmen. This is why I became acquainted with fear of success and fear of failure. It is palpable in any freshman group.

148

Isn’t it luck as to who your parents are? I would not be who I am if I were born to another set of parents, but I consider it luck that I am looking at the world through this particular set of eyes.

As to the leaving, it seems a bit counter-intuitive that immigrants that left their own home country behind would have an issue with their own children going off to college in the same country. I think about my grandparents leaving “the other side” as they used to put it with no real prospect of seeing their families ever again and without telephone and internet to keep in touch.

Isn’t it also that those kids do not even know about the elite colleges and, even with full scholarship, have trouble paying for the extras?

149

Immigrants who came on skilled worker or PhD student visas are a rather specially selected group. All immigrants have shown a high level of motivation by moving to another country.

150

'Isn’t it also that those kids do not even know about the elite colleges and, even with full scholarship, have trouble paying for the extras?"

People in the CC bubble really are completely unaware how much the “average” person (and let’s even just deal with American-born and leave out immigrants) knows about “good” schools. We’ve done this before on CC - go to your local Radio Shack, Hallmark store, gas station, whatever, ask the person there what are the best schools in the country and chances are you’ll get your state flagship, Notre Dame if they are Catholic, and maybe an elite school in the same geographic area.

151

Most people do not need to attend the best schools in the country to do just fine. And, for so many people just fine is plenty. For some, it’s lucky even. This is all so dependent on so much personal variance that I don’t think statistics or data can tell you much of anything here about anyone. Or answer why or what if?

152

While I think there is a growing income gap in this country, I simply don’t see that the Ivy League schools are particularly implicated in it. My observation, rather, has been that they have a somewhat leveling effect because they make concerted efforts to enroll students who aren’t rich, who aren’t white, and who aren’t from the East Coast. If you look at the results threads here on CC, you will see lots of kids from Joe High School all across America getting into these schools. And maybe the kid getting in is from the most distinguished family in East Northfork, Iowa, but he’s not exactly a Rockefeller.

And it’s been that way for a while. When I went to Yale back in the '70s, of my four freshman roommates, one was the son of a cop on Long Island, one was from a prep school, whose dad was a film producer, and the third was from Washington State–I’m not sure about his actual background, but I know he didn’t have much money. I was from a family that was quite well off, but I was from a small town in southern Virginia and had no connection to Yale at all. So really, only one of us was part of this elite–and he was Jewish, if that makes any difference. If anything, the students are from even more varied backgrounds now, with a lot more non-white students (for example). I think financial aid is even better than it was then as well.

As has been pointed out a lot of times before, it doesn’t matter where the children of the truly rich go to college: they will still be rich, and they will have lots of opportunities in life.

153

Well, sort of. They also recruit a ton of water polo, crew, hockey and sailing athletes, give various degrees of weight to legacy and test scores.

But they’re better now than they used to be.

154

No one would make the same argument about inherited athletic ability and the skill honed through practice so why make this argument about intellect? I can’t run a four-minute mile and neither can my kids. If we earn in top 15 or 10% because we have graduate degrees and can afford to put our kids in excellent school districts, and spend time reading and playing Legos with them, isn’t it due to our own efforts? Tired of the whinging over “white privilege.” Is it really fair to the kids who did ALL the homework and have the talent?

155

The top schools, however, are also the ones that meet full need and make attendance possible for very needy kids. Those schools are more beneficial to needy students than to to rich kids who have more connections to start with.

quareid: The point is that you, and most of us on CC, started out with advantages or our kids at least have. What about the kid that is very smart and does ALL the homework but is born in an inner city of in Appalachia? They are starting miles behind your kids and mine.

I think that in this day of the internet, most people in this country have heard of Harvard, Duke and Yale and others. But the point was that these kids do not go to High Schools where the Guidance Counselors or teachers are suggesting they may have a shot at the top schools, whether or not their parents or friends have ever heard of them. I am eternally grateful to my guidance counselor who helped me find a university that gave good financial aid, at a time when many schools, including Yale and Brown, were not need blind. My parents had not a clue. But they were wise enough to move into a town known for its good schools.

156

150 is spot on, and I would add that there are plenty of kids who should be going to vocational schools and skipping college.

157

However, the number of places in them is tiny compared to the number of places in state universities and community colleges (and about half of the super selectives’ students come from top 3% income families, based on their not getting financial aid). Perhaps the biggest problem for those from lower and middle income families is that many states’ in-state public universities have become unaffordable due to rising in-state prices and poor financial aid (PA and IL are the usual examples). So a good, but not great, student from a lower or middle income family in such a state may not be able to afford even an in-state public university, and may have few choices among other schools with either sufficient financial aid or merit scholarships.

For the community colleges, some states’ community colleges are too limited in offerings for transfer students, and may still be on the expensive side for lower and middle income families.

158

“While I think there is a growing income gap in this country, I simply don’t see that the Ivy League schools are particularly implicated in it. My observation, rather, has been that they have a somewhat leveling effect because they make concerted efforts to enroll students who aren’t rich, who aren’t white, and who aren’t from the East Coast.”

I think this is spot-on.

Moreover, despite the CC belief to the contrary, the people at the highest income levels in this country don’t NEED the Ivy League or similar schools - because when you have that level of wealth, you don’t NEED to acquire some ‘credential’ to please others.

159

Agree UCB, but I would extend that to even great students, but not the super amazing.

There was a story on NPR last night about for-profit colleges and how they are milking money from vets under the GI bill and leaving them with debt (to cover the rest of the cost), along with degrees which do not get them jobs. Somehow, these schools do not have to consider GI bill money as federal aid in complying with the requirement that 10% (TEN!!) comes from actual tuition paying students and not pell grants or other aid programs.

160

“And yet, on CC, everytime a black kid from the ghetto with a 3.8/2100 gets into a school, someone whines that their own privileged kid with a 3.9 / 2300 was unfairly overlooked.”

Ah, yes, anecdotes! Took you little time to get here. No doubt though that these people exist - what does this statement prove? I did not address race, did I? Nor did I say no members of the poor reach Ivieis did I? You are awful quick to jump to assumptions.

"You’re simply, absolutely wrong about the “dominance of ivies everywhere.” You’re taking your little northeast-centric view of the world and applying it everywhere. I don’t think you truly understand that there are many, many places where the people-in-power-positions were NOT Ivy grads, but instead attended either a state flagship or some other school. And guess what? These people are just as powerful in their worlds as the Ivy grads are in theirs. You don’t think graduating from Texas A&M or Ole Miss means more than an Ivy in certain well-to-do circles? Of course it does. Absolutely. And you’re also not understanding that there is great wealth in this country from professions / people where elite educations aren’t needed. The guy who owes the largest t-shirt company in the country. The guy who owns a chain of successful car dealerships. Etc. You really aren’t getting this. These people have just as much wealth but it’s just not as “public” as some other professions. But guess what? They’ve got the same exact amount of power. "

N…northeast centric?

Excuse me, but, well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj23pMdQBZ8

Even a cursory look into my post history would inform you that I am not nor have I ever lived in the Northeast. I am well aware that schools outside of there can offer equal, if not better education.

When I say “Ivy” I do not mean literally only the schools in the Ivy League. I mean, as someone who uses this term almost always means, schools of that caliber education. This includes, but is not limited too: UMich, UPenn, UChicago, Stanford etc. these top national schools.

Let’s actually take a look at the truly powerful:

US Presidents: Obama, son of a Harvard graduate, attended Columbia and Harvard.
Bush: Child of very rich and politically prominent family, attended private schools, went to Harvard
Clinton: Georgetown then Yale, credit to him though he came from a relatively poor family.
Bush Senior: Child of very rich and connected family, attended Yale
Reagan: Did not go to an Ivy, so he is the exception
Carter: Also did not go to an Ivy, credit to him
Ford: Went to UMich
Nixon: Offered to go to Harvard but couldn’t, eventually went to Duke
LBJ: No Ivy, credit to him
JFK: Do I even need to say?
Eisenhower: Went to West Point
FDR: Extremely prominent political family and went to Ivy

Go any further and you start seeing almost only rich people as you were usually not seen as worthy otherwise.

How about the top business leaders?

Bill Gates: Went to Harvard
Buffet: Went to UMich
Ellison: UChicago
The Koch Brothers: Ivies, children of very rich family, known for their political interference
The Waltons: Do I even need to say? Children of rich family and infamous for corrupt activities.
Bloomberg: John Hopkins, then Harvard
Bezos: Princeton
Zuckerberg: Harvard
Larry Page: UMich, then Stanford
Sheldon Adelson: Community college, surprisingly
Sergey Brin: Stanford
Carl Icahn: Princeton
George Soros: London School of Economics
Forrest Mars and his family: Yale, child of very rich family

That constitutes the richest 20 people in the country. Of them, only 1 did not attend an Ivy. Their combined wealth is more money then we could ever dream off, and is in actuality hard to even contemplate. Their combined wealth, let alone individuals, is worth more than entire countries.

Then you dare look me in the eye and say Ivies don’t dominate the country.