American PHD students are getting a Raw Deal

<p>One thing to remember (and I say this as someone who wants a PhD someday despite knowing this) is that while a PhD qualifies you or makes you more qualified for some jobs, it also causes you to be considered overqualified for many others that could have been used as fallbacks. Employers figure that a PhD will be bored in these jobs and probably not stay very long, that the PhD doesn't really want the job and is only applying out of desperation, and they also suspect that there is something wrong with a PhD who couldn't get a job at the PhD level (note that this does not mean academia specifically - there are a lot of PhD-level industry/government jobs). </p>

<p>This can, of course, be overcome in some cases (and is not true of all industries - finance seems to love science PhDs, for instance, and certainly education welcomes PhDs as teachers), but it makes you have to be that much better than everyone else at job-seeking and presenting yourself in a way that will be attractive to these employers.</p>

<p>my perspective is that the class divide comes from not how much it actually costs to attain a upper level degree, but because those who come from a first gen background- are going to have attained quite a bit just recieving a bachelors degree.</p>

<p>To think about taking 4-7 more years out of the workforce to go for a Phd, let alone living on stipends and TA income for years, is not easy for someone who doesn't have experience with that level of education to consider.</p>

<p>emeraldkity4, you're right; although, I am sure you will get the argument "well I did it".</p>

<p>You don't need a Ph.d to be an educated person.</p>

<p>emeraldkity4, do what works for you and your family.</p>

<p>You don't need a B.A. to be an educated person. You don't need a high school diploma, either. You need to be well-read. You can be an educated person by haunting your public library. You can learn to be a critical reader and a good writer on your own. Countless generations of famous thinkers and writers did not attend college.</p>

<p>But if you want to be advanced in a field of scholarship, you need more than a B.A. level education. A student takes 12 courses in a particular field, say sociology, to fulfill the requirements for the major. That won't turn him or her into a sociologist.</p>

<p>EK: Lots of people go on the job market with a B.A. or B.Sc. As I said earlier, a B.A. is a sign that the holder can read and write (though sometimes, I doubt that very much). Employers value such abilities. This is the greatest skill set that a liberal arts education can impart--not the specific skills of a major.</p>

<p>"But if you want to be advanced in a field of scholarship, you need more than a B.A. level education." </p>

<p>What does an advanced field of scholarship mean? A credential? Do I need to have a Ph.D in sociology to be a sociologist?</p>

<p>In my field (finance), people who have Ph.ds are not necessarily more educated in finance than those that work in the field for a living.</p>

<p>Now, people like me might need that credential to teach in a university, I don't know, but Ph.ds are not more educated than us. </p>

<p>Some of us have been doing this stuff for 30 years.</p>

<p>Is finance a field of scholarship?</p>

<p>Some finance is scholarship- doing research and teaching at a university. </p>

<p>Working in the finance field usually does not involve doing research for publication. Although some people work out trading and investment strategies for their own use, if they keep them secret as is typical for practitioners, then this is not scholarship.</p>

<p>Dstark:</p>

<p>There are now Doctorates in Business Administration; I don't think there are in finance. There are occupations for which experience is far more important than any diploma; I would expect that finance would be one.</p>

<p>What separates a Ph.D. from a B.A. or M.A. is not the diploma or the years it took to get the degree; it's the independent project that was undertaken, whether it is a physics experiment of a study of some small tribe in Papua New Guinea or the effect of the Little Ice Age on European economies in the 18th century. Doing a major, year-long experiment in physics is quite different from the experiments a college student does in undergraduate classes where the main focus is demonstrating something that is already known rather than discovering something new. Writing a Ph.D. dissertation in history is quite different from writing a 10-page term paper.
While it's true that many Ph.D.s must leave academia in order to get jobs, it is equally true that many firms prefer Ph.D.s or ABDs. One recruiter for a financial consulting firm recently stated that her firm was deliberately targeting graduate students in the social sciences and humanities ("we have enough techies") because the analytical and writing skills that made them excel in their disciplines were the kinds of skills that would make them contributors to her firm. These skills are cultivated after college.</p>

<p>S is being interviewed for a summer internship in a private company. The interviewer has a Ph.D. So, apparently, have quite a few others in that company. There are, of course, plenty of entry-level jobs in that company that require only a B.A. or B.Sc. But I believe that in order to rise through the ranks, more than a college degree will be needed.</p>

<p>Marite, thanks for the explanation.</p>

<p>All my finance profs had either a PhD or DBA in finance. There is no real difference. Harvard gives a DBA. Wharton a PhD.</p>

<p>What is a DBA? Never heard of it.</p>

<p>Wouldn't that be "Doctor of Business Administration"?</p>

<p>Yes, tokenadult has it right. Here is the description for the various doctoral programs at HBS:</p>

<p>Programs</a> - HBS Doctoral Programs</p>

<p>Marite, there have been PhDs in all the major specialties in an MBA education since before I earned mine in 1983 (holy moley, has it really been 25 years???). I'm pretty sure that all my professors had phids, or equivalents. The only exception I can think of, ironically, is my first-quarter finance class, which was taught by the former CFO of an airline who lectured as a retirement hobby.</p>

<p>^^. That is true in many schools. There are also likely to be more "practitioners" at B schools than at graduate schools of arts and sciences, such as the retired CFO. As I said to Dstark, in certain occupations, experience is more important than a degree.</p>

<p>Not to sidetrack the thread, but I passed my qualifying exam today, and I'm now a real live PhD candidate in developmental neurobiology! :D</p>

<p>Congratulations.</p>

<p>Mollie: Huge huge congratulations! When my H was in grad school, his group would go to the Wursthaus to celebrate when one of its members passed the Generals. Alas, the Wursthaus is no more. But I hope you celebrate in style.</p>

<p>Yea molliebatmit! What a HUGE relief. I hope you're celebrating in style tonight!</p>

<p>marite - cross posted with you, but we both chose the same words; it's obvious those who have either been through the process or are married to someone who has been through the process knows what a relief and accomplishment it is!</p>

<p>Congratulations, Mollie. Isn't it the case that some Ph.D. programs don't do qualifying exams until the second year?</p>