<p>Not having had a son, on CC I've read some of the various discussions/arguments/virtual fistfights about the problems of educating boys with interest.</p>
<p>Subject came up on another board, non-college related, in a post from an experienced teacher. (An offshoot of a discussion about "The Giver," fwiw.)</p>
<p>Post quoted below by permission of the author (the original is password protected, no link):
[quote]
My ideal school would be co-ed from pre-school through about grade 5. Starting at grade 6, grade 7 at the latest, they would be single sex. At tenth grade, junior year at the latest, it would return to being co-ed. Bouncing boys are different all together when there are no girls to bounce for. And if it's the right kind of school, boy energy is appreciated rather than seen as a learning disorder (not that there aren't learning disorders; I'm just willing to bet that a good study would find that a number of learning disorders in co-ed school are actually contextual and not chemical).
<p>I don't consider myself an expert just because I have both a daughter and a son--but heck, I'll offer an opinion anyway.</p>
<p>I agree that it can be a problem to get adolescent boys to keep their minds on the matter at hand if there are girls around to impress. For those boys, single-sex schools would be a good idea. However, my own son's experience in a very small co-ed independent school from grades 6-9 was enhanced by the presence of girls. He made friends with girls, they taught him to dance, they taught him to take care of his table manners (sort of), they taught him how to impress the ladies by NOT always trying to take center stage during classroom discussions. By the time he returned to the huge co-ed public high school, he was quite adept at getting along with both guys and gals. My house has always been full of his friends of both sexes, and I don't think it would be that way if he had spent several years with only his sister as an example of the girl-half of the world.</p>
<p>My prescription for this problem is the same as my prescription for all school-related matters: one size does not fit all; provide options and let the parents make the choice about which option will best serve their particular kid.</p>
<p>I couldn't imagine co-ed high school at this point. As a senior, I've attended a single-sex high school all four years. The environment is great. At such a school, you can throw out ideas and opinions, both academic and miscellaneous, without having to worry about a classroom splitting down gender lines. </p>
<p>Learning is so much more involved because guys seem to be so much more eccentric when working with other guys. For instance, I doubt that in a co-ed group I would ever be in a rather vocal argument about integrals. Partially because it would seem rather "dorky" in front of girls, but also because girls, in my experience, don't like to argue "serious" topics with guys (at this age, anyways). While a shouting match about calculus might seem ridiculous at first, I was surprised how much better I understood why another method afterwards.</p>
<p>That said, I don't know how much more different it would be if schools were to be separated at such critical ages.</p>
<p>My senior D is in co-ed study groups for almost every subject. It looks pretty fun to me, and everyone is dorky. You're gonna love college :). I have a 13 yo son though, and often wonder if his bouncy learning style would be more valued if there weren't prim girls on either side of him in class.</p>
<p>I have a daughter who would love nothing more than to have peers with whom she could lustily debate math topics. And a sweet as pie, thoughtful, non-bouncing middle school son. What do you do with the kids who don't fit the stereotypes?</p>
<p>I have no problem with offering single sex options. However, I believe that one size does NOT fit all in this case. My son would be very unhappy in that environment. There is no "boy" problem as far as he is concerned, so there is no reason to eliminate half his friends from the classroom.</p>
<p>A thought about the boys-only classroom, though. I understand that some boys need a different type of teaching style than girls. In my local middle school & high school, there are some single sex classrooms. I have been around the rooms quite a bit, as I am a substitute teacher. I have not observed any actual differences in teaching style/type of assignments between the boys-only & girls-only rooms. I don't think it's enough to simply separate the sexes. Recognizing the unique ways in which many boys learn would be helpful.</p>
<p>Much to our relief, our daughter preferred an all girl school. She had an outstanding educational experience and really developed a confidence and independence I don't think she would have in a co-ed. Most posters have been about how boys are better off with girls around, which one study asserts, but generally, girls do not do as well in the classroom with boys. Take the fear of looking like a dork and compound it five fold, and that is what it's like for girls. In my daughter's high school, girls excelled in physics, math and robotics as well as the liberal arts. I think it should be a family choice, but it would be great if public school was able to offer the option. She adapted extremely well to college life and holds her own academically and socially. She entered into the dating scene with a maturity she wouldn't have had in hs.</p>
<p>They have an all boys and all girls class in one MS in our school district. It has been very successful for both. Boys can be boys and girls are finding it easier to learn math and science. They can get grossed out without being teased.</p>
<p>I never considered a single sex school and if anyone told me I would put my kids in one, I would have laughed. Since we have an all boy household, (except for me) I particularly think it is important that our boys had interactions with females. Well, here I am many years later, with 4 out 5 boys in all boys schools after trying all sorts of situations, and I have to say it has been the best fit. It was supposed to be a temporary fix when we first moved here, but the kids did so well, had so few problems, made so many friend, fit in well, loved it, that we kept them there. In retrospect, we should have done it all along. Why? My boys are all a bit immature for their ages, are "all boy" in the most odious ways, a bit slow to learn, not at all sophisticated and girls their age can run circles around them. So they are automatically in the bottom half of the class when there are girls around. They are not the top boys either, and tend to be more physical than mental, so they end up pretty near the danged bottom in a mixed class. </p>
<p>In an all boys school, the teachers are wise to these problems and there are not the more sophisticated, obedient, adult pleasing girls around. Most of the boys are slightly ADD, restless, inattentive, can't keep hands to self, little self control, short attention span, immature. Have to be reminded of things constantly. So my boys don't stand out. And they do pretty well when their needs are met. As much as I don't like the segregated sexes, it has reduced a lot of my problems having them there. </p>
<p>The worry is what will happen when they have to reintegrate. That does not seem to be an issue at this point with the ones who are now in college and highschool with girls. The oldest who had coed school all along seems to be the one who is the most inadept dealing with females. Just doesn't understand them. My highschooler who is at an all boy highschool seems to be just fine with girls socially. He just has some very good male friends as he is not distracted by females at school. In fact, he seems to do better with female friends outside of school than male friends outside of school. He is used to guys he knows well, and tends to shy away from those that he does not know well, whereas he seems to gravitate towards the girls in social situations. </p>
<p>I can't advocate this to everyone. I think boys' schools are dinosaurs of sorts. BUt in our family it has worked out to have them in boys' schools.</p>
<p>kittymom, I'm one of the posters who mentioned that my son probably benefited from being around girls in the middle/junior high years, and that was the arrangement that worked well for him. </p>
<p>However, I also have a daughter in high school, and I suspect that she probably would have been better off in an all-girls school. Most of the girls my son befriended were confident, assured types, whereas my daughter is forever comparing herself with others, embarrassed out of proportion about little mistakes and too afraid to speak up in a group.</p>
<p>Options for different kinds of kids would be nice. At least in my experience, providing options for parent to choose from is not a big priority for public schools.</p>
<p>My sons used to attend a coed school that segregated middle school students by gender. They still attended the same school, but all 7th and 8th grade classes were single-sex. The kids (generally) really liked it. There's no reason they can't share the same school, and hence ECs and the lunch room, while being in segregated classes.</p>
<p>My S would have died in an all boy environment. He doesn't really follow sports, and though he's very fast, isn't interested in sports. H isn't either, so it's a family thing. (The men in my family are very interested in sports so it's a bit of a vacation for me.)</p>
<p>His friends have always been guys and girls. </p>
<p>Since he grew up with an older sister, he has always been comfortable around girls and girls' activities and his interest in the violin found more support among the almost all girl violin section of his orchestra. His last year of high school he was concertmaster, which was fun for him because his girlfriend was second chair. (She was a junior then and is first chair now.)</p>
<p>At college many of his friends are women.</p>
<p>Both my S and D would be lost without flirting; I think they get it from me.</p>
<p>D is one of those girls who gets along better with guys. She chose to attend a women's college in hopes of getting the kinds of girlfriends she saw that other girls had. It's been a mixed bag. She has made a lot of friends, but her significant confidants are guys.</p>
<p>The co-ed middle school G & T crowd became her group all through high school, and even as a twenty year old, I think she feels that these were the people she's been closest to in her life.</p>
<p>Single sex high school would not have been good for her. The jury is still out about her women's college. She loves her school, but she definitely misses the boys, even though they are just across the street and in most of her classes.</p>
<p>MYthmom, it could very well be that your son is better off in a coed environment. But that he isn't interested in sports would not be a big deal. There are plenty of kids at my sons' school who do not like sports, that thrive in the all male department. I have a flirt of son who did not seem to have an issue with an all boys' school and he seemed to do better without girls there as a distraction. He did just fine in seeing girls in other activities and had many female friends even though he went to a girls' school. In fact, I think a major distraction in college is the girls, because they do take a lot of his attention. I worried about my shyer boys since they are not with girls at school, but it did not seem to be a issue. They just do better overall with an all male academic environment, and I would have never known had we not tried it, and we tried it under duress. It was either that or a large, not so good school in a not so good area, as new boys in town since that was the rental we were able to find. By the time we bought a house, they were so happy and doing so well at the all boys' school that I could not wait to remove them from, that we made the decision to keep them there, an expensive choice given the high taxes we pay for a good school district. The peace of mind and peace at home and school is well worth it.</p>
<p>My kids have gone to a co-ed grade school, then switched to an all boys school at 7th grade. We have five boys, one in college, two in high school, one grade school, and one in pre-school. We have actually had boys at two different all boys schools. Single sex schools have worked very well for our family! </p>
<p>They seem to get along fine with girls. There are after school activities planned with nearby girls schools. Girls have parts in the plays and come to many football, basketball, baseball games. The boys and girls schools all have dances/parties, so there are plenty of opportunities for socializing with girls. But, I doubt the table manners in the cafeteria would be any better with girls around.</p>
<p>My sons have even said they like the all boys schools. A couple of them have even said they couldn't pay attention in class if there were any cute girls around.</p>
<p>Thanks all for the insights. In retrospect, kids could probably have done well where they were put. I am not advocating against single sex schools. Think it's great if all are happy and thriving.</p>
<p>Our school was very unique. Kids from one elementary school together since preschool, so they were with the exact same 85 kids (yup, public school) for fourteen years. There was very little pairing up or flirting intragrade; all this was intergrade. I think they were all to close to think of each other that way. Both kids did well, but I can see S doing well in the described environment. D not so much. Interacting with boys all day was essential to her happiness.</p>
<p>I'm all for options and I wish our public schools could/would offer more for our boys. I have long held the idea that normal "boy energy" is misunderstood. My son has had the good fortune of having teachers who understood his energy and appreciated his sense of humor but I know of plenty of other boys who have been hurt, if not damaged, by teachers who wanted all of their students to be like little girls. I have, somewhat tongue in cheek, advocated the ranch concept of education of some boys ala that one school in the high desert of CA. Another idea is the island. Not that I want to isolate trouble-makers, I want to give them the chance to feel the joy that physical work and acomplishment can provide. Anyway..as long as there are other options and the education can fit the kid, be wholesome and good for them, I agree with the author in the original post. Single sex and co-ed education both have their place.</p>
<p>I have taught in schools where the girls were just as "bad" as the boys, in so far as focusing far more on getting the boys' attentions than learning anything. The problem is that there are an awful lots of boys and girls that don't fit the stereotype. So for them, they may be disadvantaged by the single-sex classes. Sweeping, generalized reforms are not usually a good way to deal with an issue. That having been said, there are kids who would thrive in a single-sex environment.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I'm not convinced that always playing to the child's strengths or preferences is a good idea. Eventually, the child will have to be in nonpreferential situations and perform well. When do they get that experience? Is it really that bad to ask a boy to sit and pay attention for a few hours? (I say that as the mother of a very physically active boy.) Is it really that bad to ask girls to speak up in a science class, no matter what the boys may think? By constantly playing to this stuff, are we creating children that are weaker and less able to handle adversity?</p>
<p>Seventh and eighth grades in a small co-ed charter school ( a sch. we put him in because we thought it would be more nurturing than the large middle sch.) were a nightmare for S2 (and us). He made the worst grades of his life and there seemed to always be some sort of behavior issue (he got detention in seventh grade for stacking chairs too loudly...just one of what H and I considered ridiculous offenses). One of the detention "punishments" was to trim the grass outside in the common area with fingernail scissors..not kidding!
S2 was very average bouncy boy in a school of high achievers (especially the girls). He was large and athletic, popular with kids but not teachers. It was a tough couple of years...maybe it was his adolescent hormones raging or just feeling like a square peg in a round hole school. I don't know. I wouldn't want to repeat those years. </p>
<p>He went to local giant public high sch. in ninth grade (a sr. this year) and everything got so much better. He's still not top of the class but everything is generally improved from middle sch. </p>
<p>Our high school academic honor roll was printed in the local paper this week. On the "all A honor roll" there were only about five boys out of prob. thirty five names listed. The A/B had more males but was still dominated by girls.</p>