<p>So, how exactly have you fought against the problem of female infanticide and sex-selective abortion?</p>
<p>for one thing, i dont defend the government</p>
<p>bmansbs2, 6:02 PM: "Have to give the chinese some credit, at least their trying. They're probably better off than the Soviet communists, and way better off than Cuba."</p>
<p>I give the KC Royals credit for taking the field, but i won't say they play well</p>
<p>And is the time really that important?</p>
<p>Once again, red herring and a half. </p>
<p>I never went beyond saying China was making progress in addressing the problem of missing girls, and that communism was not the cause.</p>
<p>Did I sing the praises of agricultural collectives? Did I say that I approved of their use of torture? Did I once say that I favored the Chinese system? Did I say that its educational system was excellent? No. </p>
<p>I pointed out that communism was not to blame for all the negative phenomena in China, and that progress was being made. You yourself said that progress was being made.</p>
<p>PS: Come and talk to me about girls' rights <em>after</em> you've dedicated 75 hours a week working on it.</p>
<p>"red herring and a half"?</p>
<p>nice catchprase</p>
<p>I don't really know much about the econ jargon "rational ignorance" and I am sure that it has its value since it has been invented by economists. A lot of the posters on this thread keep saying that since America is the most powerful and one of the biggest countries in the world, and since English is an universal language, Americans are justified in just caring about their own country and being ignorant about the rest of the world. True, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. There is indeed no economic incentive to know about another country or learn another less-spoken language when one's home country is the world's superpower. After all, America is a capitalist country that values pragmatism and economic benefits. Americans have a reason be rationally ignorant about the rest of the world, as many of you call it.
But is every thing that is economically advantageous absolutely correct. Is it correct in the light of moral standards. Perhaps, moral standards may sound too far-fetched to many of you. So how about is it correct in the context that every American is also a member of the global community? Rational ignorance may be justified by the idea of pragmatism and economic interest. But the persons who chose to be rationally ignorant can't expect to be rational in other aspects. Americans are perhaps more attracted to the idea of rational ignorance than people from other countries, since lets not forget America is the land where self-interest prevails (ever read Tom Wolfe's The Bonfire of Vanities?) and where self-interest is the backbone of American democracy. During WWII, America closed its door to thousands of hundreds of Jewish refugees from Europe. Why let the Jews in when there might be the danger of entangling itself in the war. So Americans chose to be rationally ignorant. Unfortunately, this invocation of rational ignorance was not correct, it was morally wrong.
I am not, however, saying that it's morally wrong for Americans to not know more about another culture. But rational ignorance sure doesn't change the fact a lot of Americans know very little about China, or the rest of the world. Learning more about the Chinese and other cultures doesn't save your car assurance, absolutely right. There is no denial that being ignorant costs less than becoming aware.<br>
Nevertheless, however rational ignorance is practical and economically sound, it is also unfortunate and sad.</p>
<p>So now its a question of morals? </p>
<p>
[quote]
Is it correct in the light of moral standards. Perhaps, moral standards may sound too far-fetched to many of you. So how about is it correct in the context that every American is also a member of the global community? Rational ignorance may be justified by the idea of pragmatism and economic interest. But the persons who chose to be rationally ignorant can't expect to be rational in other aspects. Americans are perhaps more attracted to the idea of rational ignorance than people from other countries, since lets not forget America is the land where self-interest prevails... where self-interest is the backbone of American democracy.... invocation of rational ignorance was not correct, it was morally wrong.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Interesting. It's true, of course, that Americans aren't perfect. And its true that there are many Americans who, despite the immense resources and information that is avaliable to them, willfully choose to remain ignorant about other people and cultures. </p>
<p>And that is a shame and a fault of Americans.</p>
<p>Still, its hard to stomach a little morality speech coming from someone whose own government is not above running their tanks over student protestors, you know? What else has the Chinese government done? Oh, I know: refusing to safe harbor desperate, starving North Korean refugees (since you brought up the Jewish refugees during WWII)? Or, I know, forcing abortions and sterilizations on their own poor village women (see <a href="http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1103579,00.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1103579,00.html</a>). Or, I don't know, withdrawing a film from Cannes because it was about the pro-democracy demonstrations (see <a href="http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read/13558%5B/url%5D">http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read/13558</a>); the official reason for withdrawing the only Asian film from the most respected film festival in the world? --- "technical difficulties." Riiightt....</p>
<p>If you want to talk about the dangers and immoral nature of "self-interest", honey, why don't you take a look at the communist government before accusing America?</p>
<p>Peals-05, I wont challenge your criticism of the Chinese government at all. I am well aware of the many human rights abuses it has committed. And I wont deny them. What I want to remind you is that you should not mix up the Chinese government with the Chinese people, and in this case the Chinese students. The Chinese government may well be ignorant, be it purposely, rationally, or whatever adverbs you can stick in there. But unlike many Americans who chose to be ignorant themselves without any imposition from their government, even when its ideology encourages awareness and open-mindedness, the Chinese are not rationally ignorant, even though they may be forced to be ignorant about a lot of issues. First of all, they don't have the assets or the power yet to ignore the rest of the world. Secondly, The Chinese people or the Chinese students, if they want to, don't use their own country's significance of having the longest history, the richest culture or the most population as a rationale for ignoring the other cultures.
I also want to remind you I don't have any obligation to "look at my communist government before accusing America." I am not responsible for what the Chinese government has done even if I want to. I can make whatever point and whatever observation I want to, however totaliterian or democratic my government may be. I am not accusing America either. What you say am I accusing America of? Accusing America of its rational ignorance or self-interest? Mind you that, it is not me who started this "accusation", if you stubbornly consider it an accusation.
I was simply pointing out a difference between the American people and the Chinese that seems to have agitated you a lot. There are many things that the Chinese can learn from the Americans. Equally, there are also many other things that the Americans should learn from the Chinese. If I am accusing anything, it will be your over-defensiveness about your own perspective of America and China.</p>
<p>
[quote]
What I want to remind you is that you should not mix up the Chinese government with the Chinese people, and in this case the Chinese students.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's interesting and true. While I have targeted the Chinese government for its faults, I never once implied that the Chinese people/students were conceited, less knowledgable, arrogant or less open-minded. However, you've used all those words to describe the American people. </p>
<p>And you expect me to NOT be defensive?</p>
<p>Let's take a trip through the thread and go through your glaring and offensive overstatements:</p>
<p>
[quote]
The Chinese people or the Chinese students, if they want to, don't use their own country's significance of having the longest history, the richest culture or the most population as a rationale for ignoring the other cultures.
[/quote]
Guess what? **If* the American people or the American students want to, they don't use their country's significance of being the largest superpower the world has ever seen for ignoring other cultures, *too. So what's your big point? </p>
<p>(If you really want to get down to it, for thousands of years the Middle Kingdom showed quite a bit of "rational ignorance" towards other cultures, resulting in their downfall during invasion and imperialism (unlike, say, the Japanese who adapted to Western technology and could help themselves). I guess both America and China have been guilty of rational ignorance, at different times.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
since lets not forget America is the land where self-interest prevails and where self-interest is the backbone of American democracy.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Really? Did you get that from a textbook? </p>
<p>
[quote]
Do you see or know any American high school or even college student who is learning Chinese
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
the truth is that most Chinese students are much more open-minded, more eager to learn than their American counterparts.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
The average Chinese students know a lot more about America than the average American students know about China.<a href="Now%20are%20you%20counting%20the%20overwhelming%20population%20of%20Chinese%20who%20live%20in%20impoverished%20rural%20agrarian%20villlages%20in%20the%20countryside%20or%20no?%20Because%20I'm%20not%20quite%20sure%20they%20know%20that%20much%20about%20America.">/quote</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
Many American kids... are blinded by their own complacency and the American-centric way of thinking at large. They surrender themselves to their arrogance and conceited ignorance which are a worse dictatorship than the Chinese government.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How can you say these things and NOT expect someone to get defensive, Alwaysfaithful? I mean, really.</p>
<p><<<pip-pip, rational="" ignorance,="" if="" you="" have="" studied="" any="" econ,="" explains="" why="" people="" don't="" know="" more="" about="" chinese="" grassroots="" politics.="" it's="" in="" very="" few="" people's="" interests="" to="" do="" so.="">>></pip-pip,></p>
<p>A few days ago, UCLAri posted that on this thread. I said then that our failure to do make ourselves more aware of Chinese politics--and foreign affairs in general--was disappointing, given that we had such access to information and freedom of expression?</p>
<p>PEALS-05, why didn't you lambast me then? Why alwaysfaithful now?</p>
<p>me chinese, me play joke, me put pee-pee in your coke</p>
<p>
[quote]
PEALS-05, why didn't you lambast me then? Why alwaysfaithful now?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Alwaysfaithful, I think, generalizes quite a lot. She or he struck a nerve with me, I suppose. I really don't believe statements that "the conceit of American young people is worse than the dictatorship of the communist government" or "Americans don't study Chinese, have you ever seen any do it?" are valid and acceptable statments, you see.</p>
<p>Alwaysfaithful uses the world "average" sometimes in a loaded way-- the "average" American, the "average" Chinese. If he or she wants to comment upon the "average" American or "average" Chinese, he or she had better know every American and every Chinese in the whole world before constructing a composite, general "average." Similarily offensive and ridiculous was that no Americans participate in foreign messageboards. Until Alwaysfaithful keeps a close eye on every single messageboard in the entire world for American users, I won't believe a thing she or he states upon the entirety of American participation in foreign messageboards. </p>
<p>Pip-pip, I don't recall seeing you write anything vaguely as overblown, overstated and baseless as Alwaysfaithful, who frequently uses "The Chinese" and "The Americans" in his/her posts in regard to behavior. I do not think Alwaysfaithful is a sociologist of the Americans, or the Chinese. I can probably be found guilty of generalization, but I don't believe I've made statements upon the way the Chinese people act or behave.</p>
<p>Alwaysfaithful seems to enjoy making statments upon American behavior and the way they act. And I doubt she or he is an expert in that field, so I seem to be "lambasting" him/her. </p>
<p>I actually think Alwaysfaithful says some really interesting and valid, supportable and even laudable things about cultural exchange between the Americans and Chinese. But there are glaring examples of ignorance and overstatement from him or her too.</p>
<p>Oh, and creamsoda: I'll just be plain blunt and say you're retarded, dude. And not funny, which is what you were probably hoping for. You failed miserably. Can I hope that you're in maybe seventh grade and not a prospective college student, or would that be asking for too much? The latter, I'm afraid... :(</p>
<p><< I actually think Alwaysfaithful says some really interesting and valid, supportable and even laudable things about cultural exchange between the Americans and Chinese. But there are glaring examples of ignorance and overstatement from him or her too.>></p>
<p>PEALS-05, I would agree with this. But I do not feel that questioning the morality of rational ignorance falls into this category. </p>
<p>Btw, self-interest has been identified as the backbone of American democracy by many <em>American</em> political scientists; from Walter Lippman to Samuel Popkin to Robert Dahl.</p>
<p>pip-pip,</p>
<p>Just to reiterate: The reason most Americans don't bother to know about the value of the yuan on any given day is because they have no reason to know. Can you tell me right now, without looking online, who is the head of the European Parliament? The European Commission?</p>
<p>UCLAri, I'm not freaking arguing with you on that. As you might gather from my previous posts, I've learned about rational ignorance from a political science anlge. I don't think it's something that can be judged from a moral perspective (as alwaysfaithful did), but I also don't think it's wrong to question its morality (as PEALS-05 seems to). </p>
<p>But you should probably pick a diff. criteria if you want to quiz me, b.c. I'm studying for my European Politics final right now. </p>
<p>PS: I think you're one of the most astute posters on this board.</p>
<p>pip-pip,</p>
<p>I know you're not, but I'm making the point again because many people seem to have ignored/missed it.</p>
<p>Oh fine, who's the PM of South Korea? And no Wikipediaing!</p>
<p>I kid, but you get my point. Oh, and thanks.</p>
<p>Peals-5, I have to go to class now so I don't have a whole lot of time. But I have NEVER said that "do you see or know any American who is learning Chinese", in fact I said "do you see or know any American who is learning and even attempts to make posts on a Chinese forum....." The key difference between these sentences is the conjugation "AND". I know a lot of Americans who are learning Chinese. There are frigging Chinese classes at my school, how can I deny that? I was not asking you to tell me if you know any American learning Chinese, I was asking if there is any American posting on a Chinese forum on top of learning this foreign language. Learn to read first before jumping on me because of your own misinterpretation.</p>
<p>alwaysfaithful,</p>
<p>If my experiences with Japanese are any indication, quite a few people who get to an advanced level will use it on the net.</p>
<p>Like I said, I used to go on forums, but found few that interested me.</p>
<p>Nevermind the fact that the learning curve for Chinese/Japanese is much steeper since you can't as easily look up words you don't know.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Learn to read first before jumping on me because of your own misinterpretation.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Don't make me laugh. I called you out on that same issue a few days ago and you didn't address it. Why are you addressing it now? Why don't you address the other overstatements you made? (Oh, yes, because you have to go to class...)</p>
<p>Maybe you should learn not to generalize. Perhaps you should learn not to make idiotic statements suggesting that conceitedness on the part of the American youth is worse than the dictatorship of the communist government. Maybe you should refrain from using broad and controversial statements judging upon the intellectual and moral behavior and qualities of both Chinese and American peoples.</p>
<p>Then maybe people won't "misinterpret" what you write and call you out on it. Just a fairly reasonable suggestion.</p>