American students in Chinese eyes

College Life
161

<p>alwaysfaithful,</p>

<p>I don't even know where to begin to find a forum that would actually allow that access. Many student forums would have been shut-down rather quickly due to the higher frequency of ideals of democracy and such ideals passed around. </p>

<p>Secondly, English is taught early upon education. China realizes that English is a language that needs to be mastered quickly for their entrance upon the world. Here, being taught Mandarin isn't exactly on the "to-do" list for higher education. To the answer to your question of do I know anyone in high school/college and such, the answer to that question is answered in the rich study-abroad programs offered at many colleges across the nation. Of course, it's not exactly a forum. It's the real world, but some may debate that may be called a "forum" in the same sense. </p>

<p>I certainly don't believe that Chinese students are more open-minded and eager to learn than their American counterparts. Rather, their culture(parenting) pushes toward (ironically - considered America) a Protestant work ethic. Throughout high school, I have seen very few motivated to learn, with the exception of a few. Needless to say, that few are located now at Harvard and Cornell. What may be argued is that while American's brightest may be able to well-stand their own ground against China's best, how does the average student fare?</p>

<p>America's dropout rate is steadily increasing. However, some of the parents also are painfully aware that admissions to colleges are also at an all-time high. Even with the sheer population of students, we quickly have become aware of the gap in society. The divide between those who seek a higher education and those who choose to waste their youth are creating a rift divide. If we compare those who have chosen to work throughout high school and graduate from college, I'd much perfer the open-minded thinking individual graduating from college. However, as a society, we are painfully reminded about those who have become dropouts and the strain on the economy.</p>

<p>What you have then are two types of American students. Those who have bothered to attain what was possible and those who chose to take an easy way out. Does the ambitious (not even over zealous ambitious) rival the Chinese student? Yes. Drop the dropout rival? No.</p>

162

<p>
[quote]
Do you see or know any American high school or even college student who is learning Chinese

[/quote]
</p>

<p>As someone living in the US, actually, yes. Don't infer that American students don't study Chinese, because a growing number actually do. And not just in universities, but an increasing number of high schools and even middle/grade schools are introducting Chinese language programs.</p>

<p>Please also take into account that only until recently Chinese hasn't been considered as useful as say, Spanish or another European language, for obvious reasons. Only with the recent economic rise of China has learning Chinese become more useful. </p>

<p>Do you think if America and Britian were third-world-countries way across the world with historically impenetrable cultures and political systems that the Chinese would bother learning English? Um, no.</p>

<p>Please watch yourself before accusing Americans of not learning Chinese in the past. There are some pretty good reasons why they wouldn't.</p>

<p>
[quote]
and even attempts to make posts on a Chinese forum and debate with the native speakers?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Would that even be considered acceptable in China? I mean an open and very public Chinese forum with free debate that points out negative aspects of the communist government?</p>

<p>An important thing we should all realize is that this very thread is possible because the American government will not censor internet rights and access like certain other political governments will/have in the past.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Or for that matter, on a Japanese forum, a French forum, a German forum...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh huh. Alwaysfaithful, do you monitor every single Japanese, French or German forum on the internet? Until you monitor every single foreign forum in the entire world for a long period of time, then I will believe any statements you make upon American participation in those forums. </p>

<p>But since you don't, let's ignore that ridiculous and groundless accusation, okay?</p>

<p>
[quote]
They surrender themselves to their arrogance and conceited ignorance which are a worse dictatorship than the Chinese government.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hahahahah. That's probably the funniest thing I've heard all day. And no, that's not American ignorance coming from me. That's just plain overstatement and lack of insight coming from you. </p>

<p>When a bunch of American kids, fueled by their conceitedness, run their tanks, over a bunch of protestors for democracy, killing hundreds, then maybe they'll be as bad as the Chinese government. But worse than the Chinese government?</p>

<p>Hahahahha.</p>

163

<p>For the record, I do debate and discuss things on a French forum. It's good way to improve.</p>

164

<p>I agree with Lurker on the difference between Chinese and American schools and would even go so far as to say communication skills, that is to say, social skills, are more important to higher levels of success in most fields (business, law, etc.) than rote memorization. The brilliant engineer who has no social skills will be condemned to his/her cubicle, alone, forever; the one who works well with a team (has "leadership" and whatnot) will be able to climb the corporate ladder. But Chinese scientists have gone on to do amazing things, and many many of them are even in prestigious MBA, PhD, etc. programs at very prestigious schools in the US even today. I also predict many will rise to higher business positions because of the growing influence of the Asian market on the world market.</p>

<p>And I repeat again - I agree that though the Chinese government is unexcusably oppresive and one of the biggest violator of human rights in the world, the US is not innocent either. But all I could think of when alwaysfaithful said that bit about oppressive governments was Star Wars III (?) - "And this is the way democracy dies: to thunderous applause." :)</p>

<p>There can really be no answer to OP's question because as MANY people have pointed out already the entire question is about stereotypes and all answers are usually generalizations. So some students in the US rival some students in China. There are pros and cons to each system, and to the set of students each creates, and there is, like in much of life, no clear "answer" in black and white.</p>

165

<p>I'm also a foreigner/international student (Russian). Here's my take on the issue. I agree that academically American students are not as strong as the ones we have in Russia, for instance. However, as someone pointed out here, there's more to intelligence than math. If Americans are so stupid, how would you explain the fact that America is indeed the most economically powerful state in the world? Running a successful business takes a lot of hard work, intelligence, risk-taking. After all, the battle for money is the most competitive game of all times. Even Chinese students who study hard for SAT are, in essence, fighting for money. Americans seem to be at least in the top league in this competition. </p>

<p>I don't want to sound racist, but here are my comments about Chinese students. I've seen many Asian students who score nearly a perfect score on SAT/GMAT/GRE yet cannot say a single coherent sentence in English. Now, who needs that kind of intelligence? Many of them just study 24/7 like robots, but they never seems to have any good ideas or creativity. The other thing: it is my long-term observation that Asian students often cheat on tests in class. Americans and other nationalities rarely do that. Also, we all know that ETS had a big problem in China with their GRE test. They also cheat off class. In each class I would hava an Asian gang who has last year's tests or something similar which helps them to score high on an exam. But the major thing - wat's up with your English, guys? Yeah, I know that Mandarin is different than a typical European language. However, I see many Japaneese, Korean, etc. students who's English is good enough for me to understand. However, I know many Chinese students who, after having spent 10 years in US schools, cannot say a single coherent sentence in English. But the major thing: if US schools suck so much, how come for every spot in a graduate program there are thousands of Chineese and Indian applicants and only a hundred of other nationalities? Apparently, US schools do have something that Chinese students want really bad (I think it is money).</p>

166

<p>To those who accuse Americans of not being able to point to countries on the map: you have to keep in mind that America is a whole different world. Yes, some Americans think that Russia is a state in Canada. But how many Chineese students know anything about NASCAR, baseball, football, or rock'n'roll? I don't know much about the former two, so some Americans may also think I'm a bit ignorant. Americans don't really need to look outside their world, because their world is big and developed - it's a planet of its own. There's plenty to know on this planet, so there's no need to look outside.</p>

167

<p>Good point, kondurka. The US is, without a doubt, the largest cultural engine on earth. It's certainly understandable why many Americans don't care about the rest of the world, since culturally, they have everything they could ever want right here at home.</p>

168

<p>Have to give the chinese some credit, at least their trying. They're probably better off than the Soviet communists, and way better off than Cuba.</p>

<p>I'm going into aerospace engineering though, and I know that many of the chinese aerospace "achievements" are actually given to them or stolen from the Russians. Most of their fighters/bombers are almost carbon copies, as is the chinese manned space vechicle.</p>

<p>And look at this site</p>

<p><a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/1921/launch.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/1921/launch.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Look how many missions are in the red AFTER their first manned flight?</p>

<p>And I agree with kondurka that many chinese students want to come to america to learn, both for quality and money, but also freedom. Look at Berlin during the Cold War, the West Germans didn't have to post guard towers and kill people to keep people out of East Germany.</p>

169

<p>Wow, kondurka, I think you just introduced two new (wrong) generalizations into this thread:</p>

<p>1) Asian students often cheat on tests in class (more so than students of other ethnicities, I suppose?)
2) However, I know many Chinese students who, after having spent 10 years in US schools, cannot say a single coherent sentence in English. (while, apparently "many Japaneese, Korean, etc. students who's English is good enough for me to understand.")</p>

<p>I'll play the Diet of Worms to your Martin Luther (although who is "right" is inversed in this case) - "Retract [your statements now]!"</p>

170

<p><< They're probably...way better off than Cuba.>></p>

<p>Maybe in some respects. However, many of the safety nets that previously existed under communism have either eroded or been dismantled. Public health, for example, is not exactly doing so hot vis a vis Cuba these days.</p>

<p>Child Mortality Rate (<5 years):
1. China: 37
2. Cuba: 7</p>

<p>Infant Mortality Rate (0-11 months):
1. China: Will not disclose
2. Cuba: 7 per 1000 live births</p>

<p>Neonatal Mortality Rate (0-27 days):
1. China: Will not disclose
2. Cuba: 4 per 1000 live births</p>

<p>Incidently, roughly 130 workers die in industrial accidents in China a day. Their families receive no compensation.</p>

171

<p>Ebonytear: I believe Martin Luther King, Jr. did many generalizations as well:</p>

<p>"It is incontestable and deplorable that Negroes have committed crimes; but they are derivative crimes. They are born of the greater crimes of the white society."
Martin Luther King, Jr.</p>

<p>The Negro needs the white man to free him from his fears. The white man needs the Negro to free him from his guilt.
Martin Luther King, Jr. </p>

<p>The Negro's great stumbling block in the drive toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice.
Martin Luther King, Jr.</p>

172

<p>Kondurka, I believe ebonytear was referring to the first Martin Luther. Like the Reformation Martin Luther.</p>

173

<p>Well yes, pip-pip, Cuba does beat China in child mortality rate by a landslide, as China has a practice of killing kids if they are not the first born to keep the population under control.</p>

<p>I am not a fan of Cuba or China, or any communist government whatsoever. in his manefesto, Marx said that a "dictatorship of the proletariat" would have to rule before the free, stateless communsit society could emerge. what he never counted on was that the leaders of that dictatorship would never dream of just giving up there states or power. Way to think ahead there, Karl.</p>

174

<p>ebonytear and pip-pip: sorry, with me being an atheist this is another area of my ignorance: I don't know much about the history of Christianity. :)</p>

175

<p>Yes ebonytear did mean the reformation Martian Luther, for whom MLK Jr. was named after (don't know a link that I can support this with, but it is true).</p>

176

<p>It's AP Euro or Western Civ 101.</p>

177

<p>Yeah, Luther was an important figure, as he removed the Catholic Church's rule of Western Europe</p>

<p>EDIT: well not completely, but a few dozen wars later, the power was gone everywhere, not just in places like Germany and Scandinavia</p>

178

<p>bmansb2, please refer to the methodology behind the stats-- Child Mortality Rate represents those LIVE BIRTHS (e.g. not abortions) that have matured past 11 months, but have not made it to 5 years. </p>

<p>Where is your 3rd party documentation that those children have been killed as part of China's population control efforts? Furthermore, if that were the case, why would they even report that number?!</p>

<p>In fact, infanticide and sex-selective abortions are becoming more prevalent in India.</p>

<p>As an aside, how do explain Cuba doing better than the US with CMRs?</p>

179

<p>Of course, and you can go ahead and compare yourself to MLK Jr. On the other hand there is truth to some of his "generalizations" - doesn't discrimination against blacks and a system that relegates them to the lowest income bracket contribute to crime? Many figures will show correlation, if not causation (which can be easily figured through logic) - look at the gang violence in America today. CA is currently going to implement an after school program because giving children in inner city schools more time outside of their homes - which many of the times are terrible, as they are reduced to poverty living in federal buildings that are cramped with drug dealers, etc. - and possibly reducing violence because if they're in "school" they're less likely to go home, learn these behaviors, and become part of gangs later on.I can discuss the later ones if you want, but seriously. Your stereotypes are just plain stupid, hurtful, and wrong.</p>

<p>1) First answer: The Perfect Score
Second answer: rich families using a loophole on the SAT (saying their kid has ADD) to give their children more time to complete the test
Third answer: Well, at MY high school it's the Russians who cheat all the time. Those dam* Commies! They cheat more than anyone else and what's more their country is regressing back into totalitarianism! Cheney's right when he says Putin's a real Commie set out to take over the world!* Geez, like a previous poster mentioned, at least China is moving TOWARD democracy...not away from it. </p>

<p>2) First Answer: for every Chinese you know who can't speak "perfect/understandable" English there are many more who can. There's a reason why Chinese are considered ORMs in higher education.
Second Answer: Well, in MY high school all the Chinese speak PERFECT English. In fact, they speak English better than the Russians masquerading as Americans and the Japanese and the Koreans. They're all on the Mock Trial team and the Debate team and they just plain dominate, especially in English.</p>

<p>*refer to Cheney's recent remarks about Putin and tightening his reins over Russia in what he called a distinctly Communist fashion..this had the Russian government screaming about Cold War stereotypes.</p>

<p>EDIT: Yeah, I was referring to Martin Luther. When he posted his 99 Theses the Church condemned him as a heretic and called him to the Diet of Worms (Worms is a city in Germany, or used to be in what used to be Germany) to try to make him retract his statements.</p>

<p>European History: Yet another area where Asians dominate. :)</p>

180

<p>I wasn't talking about CMR there speed, i was talking about technology and education.</p>

<p>It is a well known fact that there are many many more male youth than female youth in china. Why? If a Chinese family only gets one kid, they will want a boy so he can do labor on their farm/make more money/etc. In rural china, families will drop baby daughters down wells so the government will let them have another kid. Makes me sick just to think about it. </p>

<p>oh and 'In fact", India is a bad example, as they also have over a billion people. if you had said the Maldives or something, i may have been impressed</p>

<p>Oh and sorry ebonytears, it was 95 thesis, not 99.
It really doesn't matter, but at least there's one thing this white guy knows (but then again im Lutheran, so i should know it)</p>