An "American" in a Canadian school?

<p>

  1. [Argumentum</a> Ad Populum](<a href=“http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/popular.html]Argumentum”>Ad Populum: Appeal to Popularity) - it’s a logical fallacy to assume that something is true simply because it is commonly believed. Telling me to jump on the bandwagon does not refute any of my arguments.</p>

<ol>
<li>A ranking is only as good as its methodology. I refer to the USNews grad rankings because they represent the opinions of a wide range of academics who were surveyed about the prestige of different departments in the university. This is worth considering for those majoring in the arts and sciences because it’s a decent proxy for recognition by grad schools and also research excellence. Ditto for the USNews engineering and UG business rankings. I refer to the WSJ because it provides information from recruiters in a wide variety of professional fields, which are relevant to students in those areas who are hoping for a job following graduation. I refer to BW and knowledgeable posters here on CC because future business majors may be particularly interested in the reputation and career opportunities from their degree.</li>
</ol>

<p>2a. So, my criteria do as good of a job as we could expect of evaluating the research and reputation of the faculty in every department as well as the post-graduation job opportunities in professional fields. If you think the alternative criteria used in the general USNews rankings are better, feel free to present an actual cogent argument explaining their value.</p>

<ol>
<li>I find it bizarre that you repeatedly uphold UT as an example of a superior US school while criticizing Michigan considering that UT and Michigan are two of the most similar schools I could think of. Both are large public universities and both are outstanding on a number of levels.

FWIW, I know plenty of dual-citizens who currently live in the US but would gladly consider moving to Canada. More to the point, CC threads are often viewed by a wide variety of people and blanket statements are not useful unless qualified. It seems far simpler to avoid making drastic assumptions and instead simply present the truth: that a US school is probably more prestigious in the US but not necessarily in Canada.</li>
</ol>

<p>Oh ok. So regardless of the fact that their entire basis of work is college rankings, AND it is the one ranking system that is referred to the most, AND it essentially dominates the business of college rankings, the fact that you don’t like their methodology doesn’t allow me to use it in my argument. Sorry, won’t let that happen again.</p>

<p>And don’t say that it is not the leader of college rankings because it is. Again, I ask you to show me something more widely accepted or used. Oh wait…there is none.</p>

<p>You can quote their grad rankings, the WSJ for job placements, or Business Week’s business department rankings, but the fact is, we’re talking about HOLISTICALLY ranking an UNDERGRAD school. That means we’re looking at the entire college experience - not just one factor. If you’re just talking about the rankings from the WSJ, for example, according to that A&M is superior to Harvard…I doubt even you would bend towards that claim. The rankings you presented do not take into account all the factors (only looking at a single factor, such as job placement), and as you said you do not accept US News BECAUSE of that reason, I don’t see why you’re bringing these college rankings into the picture.</p>

<p>I do not hold UT on a higher level than UMich. I think UMich is a great school; the only reason we’re talking about this is because it was brought up in an example. I got into UMich and would have gladly gone there, had I not been financially constrained.</p>

<p>And sure, your last statement would hold for a localized school such as A&M. But to say that an of the Ivy Leagues, Stanford, even UMich (you get the idea) would not be considered prestigious in Canada is an unjust approximation of the quality of these schools.</p>

<p>

Already talked about this: “it’s a logical fallacy to assume that something is true simply because it is commonly believed. Telling me to jump on the bandwagon does not refute any of my arguments.”

Talked about this too: “my criteria do as good of a job as we could expect of evaluating the research and reputation of the faculty in every department as well as the post-graduation job opportunities in professional fields. If you think the alternative criteria used in the general USNews rankings are better, feel free to present an actual cogent argument explaining their value.”</p>

<p>I’m not sure what else there is to consider beyond superb academic departments and career prospects. Social life is obviously extremely important, but that’s subjective and I’d bet that Michigan scores high there too.</p>

<p>The WSJ rankings are not perfect. They represent the opinions of a wide variety of corporate recruiters in a wide variety of fields. Nothing more, nothing less. I would not base a decision solely on these rankings. However, when you already have departments ranked highly by academia, top research spending, and external support for professional programs from both ranking groups and qualified CC members the WSJ rankings provide yet more validation from another potentially important group.

And the better strategy for your side of this argument would have been to argue that schools like Toronto or UBC are not in fact peers for Michigan. Because if you grant that they are, you elevate them to an impressive height.

  1. If you are going to school in TX, I’m surprised you haven’t yet encountered the strength of the Aggie Network.</p>

<ol>
<li>I didn’t say that the US school would not be prestigious in Canada. I said that it would not necessarily be more prestigious in Canada.</li>
</ol>

<p>Lol you know what dude…I don’t think either of us is getting what the other is trying to say. So let’s just agree to disagree.</p>

<p>^ Whatever you want to do… :)</p>

<p>I’m an Alumni of UBC. I am originally from Alabama. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Figure out where in Canada you want to be. Regionalism in Canada is much stronger than in the U.S. and the major Canadian Cities have different cultures. Canada has 30 million people and majority of that population is within 45 minutes of the border, and a metro area. So there is vast difference regionally. Vancouver, it generally does not snow is about 40-50% immigrants mostly from Asia, the bulk of these asians are from Hong Kong. However, Taiwanese, Koreans, Japanese, Indians (Punjabi in particular), Filipinos, Iranians are present and well represented. I also met multiple sutdents from Jordan, Bangladesh, Germany, Mexico, Brasil, Spain, Thailand, Singapore, Indonesia. I have met less than two french Canadians here, and if you know nothing about Canada you would assume Cantonese was its second official language. </p></li>
<li><p>The top Canadian universities offer excellent academics, are rigorous and well respected in ACADEMIA around the world. UBC, Mcgill, U of T, are known by most academics at major research universities. I thought about once transferring back to the states to major research Universities (Maryland, Alabama) and was strongly discouraged because the departments of the major I had selected felt UBC was academically superior. Getting into graduate school after graduation is not the issue.</p></li>
<li><p>Prestige. Foreign schools are not prestigious in the very top American school are. Harvard and MIT are known by anyone and their dog. However, many foreigners over estimate the prestige of American schools. Many of the students at UBC I met never heard of places such as Duke, Brown or Emory. Conversely, most of them thought Canadian schools weren’t that good because they weren’t Harvard or MIT. I knew one person who thought UC Davis was a poor university, because someone who dropped out of UBC transferred to that school. The reality is that school identities are regional so essentially unless you can get into an elite university with excellent job recruitment, your schools reputation is going to be strongest in the region that you are in. Outside that region they are just going to be treated like any flagship state university. What would the average texan think of a University of Delaware degree? I don’t think most would dismiss it as being worthless. All this being said, many of classmates and friends went anywhere and everywhere. Top companies do recruit from top universities around the globe not just in the U.S. as most of them do have offices in many countries. </p></li>
<li><p>Job prospects. After graduation generally you’ll have an offer for a no strings attached work permit, that works for a few years. In the states your degree will be treated like any public school. So essentially any brand recognition your school may have will be strongest in Canada. One thing to keep in mind though unless you are at a very elite school in the states this is generally true in any region, generally when you take your degree outside of that region most employers will assume its a degree equivalent to an other. </p></li>
<li><p>Canadian Universities are fundamentally different from U.S. they are comparable most closely to large public research universities in the states. The concept of a liberal arts class room with small class sizes do not exist here. At Mcgill, UBC, Queens, Western Ontario, you will be in lecture halls, where professors will not know your name, unless you are in small major that many students don’t do. Your papers are often graded by T.A.s.
If you want to get to know professors you must be proactive, come to office hours and participate as much as possible in classes. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Generally Canadians also take more classes in a Major or a Minor. In fact many minors require as much course work in the area as a major does in an American school. This means that its very hard to double major, or even graduate with both a major and a minor without planning this as soon as one enters the school. In addition to major and minor, Canadian schools often offer a special type of Major called Honours. Honours is not the same thing as graduating from an “honors program” in the states. A honours is generally a special type of major offered through the department your majoring in that generally requires even more courses than a major, and often much more advanced courses. These degrees are generally highly valued for students wishing to enter grad schools in Canada. What all this implies is that it is much harder to switch programs in Canada and graduate on time. Generally you will have two years to decide a major in Canada, just like in the states. However, I never have met someone who finished in 4 years that didn’t decide what their major would be by the end of there first year. </p>

<p>At the same time because Canadian degrees are more concentrated in the subject which they major in, they offer a greater variety of classes. For example, I could have studied nothing, but economics for 6 years and still not finished taking all the courses offered to undergraduates majoring in economics.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The academic environment is competitive. Generally there are less graded assignments and your grades are weighted on one or two exams/papers/projects. That doesn’t mean academics aren’t rigorous. Most students I knew spent 25 to 30 hours a week studying despite not having homework, and class averages in many of my classes were 60-73. (C to B). However, some courses had even lower class averages (52 a D). Furthermore, classes were curved in either direction to meet a target average. </p></li>
<li><p>Academic scholarships are more difficult to obtain in Canada, and more difficult to keep. At UBC it was very very rare for international students to have a full scholarship, and most people that had any sort of scholarship were in the top 5% of the class. Furthermore, that students had to generally maintain above an 80 Average (a 3.60) which means that the student generally needed to be in the top 20% of the class. Again this is one of the most competitive schools in Canada in terms of admissions, I know many many students who lost scholarships.</p></li>
<li><p>Living. Most Canadian schools are commuter campuses. Campus life is not comparable to the states, but there are fewer college neighborhoods that build right around campus.Many of the big Canadian universities don’t guarantee housing. Most of the students commute from off campus. A lot of local students do live at home with there parents. This you’ll find is a quite common practice in foreign countries. One of the big attractions of UBC for me, was that they did guarantee housing for non Vancouver-Metro residents. That being said this doesn’t mean being University student at Canadian schools are a bore. It simply means that a lot of University social scene centers around what the city offers. Vancouver had access to great skiing, and amazing variety in terms of stuf to do. A hitting a bar or night club was far more common than going to a house party. Not that the latter never happened. </p></li>
<li><p>Cost. Canada is more expensive than the U.S. They have a national sales tax in addition to state taxes, and then on average you’ll find that stuff is about 20 to 30% more expensive. This is even true if your from an expensive part of the U.S. a lot of stuff in the U.S. has the same price everywhere due to large chain stores etc. You’ll find those same chains charge more in Canada. It also doesn’t help that the Canadian dollar has been even with the U.S. dollar for most of the last 5 years.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>safarichick, my daughter is a dual citizen raised in the US who decided to go to university in Canada. She’s applying this year, but decided that she could avoid the pure hysteria and tension of the college application process at her New England prep school. She did not want to go to an Ivy or pressure-cooker school and compared the schools she saw in Canada with schools in the US and felt she could do better in Canada. She ended up not applying in the US. I think this will work well for her.</p>

<p>My son on the other hand chose to attend what is usually the top-ranked liberal arts college in the US. It is a relatively high-pressure place. It is excellent, he’s learning alot and getting lots of professorial attention. The prestige of the school will probably help in getting into grad schools and get internships/jobs (particularly in the Northeast). </p>

<p>I’ve had experience with elite universities in the US (attended 3 of HYPS and taught at one) and think that the top 15 or so schools in the US offer some thing you won’t find at Canadian schools, but leaving those schools out, you can do quite well in Canada. Funding at Canadian universities is and is going to be an issue because much of the funding is subject to the vagaries of provincial politics and some provinces are under-investing. The same will be true with public universities in the US, but less so with successful private institutions. </p>

<p>I agree with much ashesatdusk posted, but a few things strike me as a bit off. While a) Canadian school focus much more on one’s major (people ask kids applying what they are going to study whereas in the US, it is assumed that you might well not know enough to know what your major is going to be and that is thought to be perfectly reasonable); and b) I was struck by how applicants to Canadian schools thought about things in terms that were much more pre-professional/vocational (I’m going to study kinesiology or business) rather than a more liberal artsy-focus (I will study something and then I’ll know enough to choose a major and then I’ll figure out what I’m going to do with my life), Canada has a set of undergraduate-focused universities including Mount Allison and Acadia that look quite comparable to US liberal arts colleges, albeit with more emphasis on major and less on generally learning how to think. Take a look at the Maclean’s magazine annual rankings of universities. While the cost of living (or certain aspects like taxes are higher in Canada), other costs are lower. In particular, the all-in cost of tuition, room, board and fees for a Canadian citizen, even one living in the US might be something like $15K per year. This is so much lower than US costs of attendance of private schools and even many public ones (UT would cost for a Texas resident about $20K and about $45K for an out-of-state resident; see [The</a> University of Texas at Austin Tuition, Fees and Expenses](<a href=“http://www.howtogetin.com/colleges/university-of-texas-at-austin/expenses.php]The”>http://www.howtogetin.com/colleges/university-of-texas-at-austin/expenses.php)) that one can afford to pay GST without worrying about it.</p>

<p>I will chime in to add my perspective. I agree mostly with the above posters but I believe that ashsatduck is overgeneralizing his/her personal experience. I will just point out areas I disagree. I speak as someone who has been a professor at several US universities for more than a decade- Ivy and state- and at a major canadian school for over a decade. </p>

<p>Shawbridge is right, there are quite a few equivalents to US LACs- Acadia, Mount Allison, Bishops, spring to mind. Moreover, there are many many programs within larger universities that provide a smaller feeling, and also have relative small class sizes. My intro freshman classes at a big uni have never surpassed 60, and after that, I’ve never taught more than 40, and most of my classes are around 20, one is 8. It very much depends upon one’s faculty/school and also one’s major. I can also attest that most of our students are not evaluated or taught by TAs (though TAs exist) and most students within our school are very much known by faculty in their major. Our program is over 1000 students across 4 years. Likewise, as a counter point, MOST of the students in our program double major. I would also point out that the grading is about identical in both locations. No doubt Ashsatdusk is accurately capturing his/her experience, but it varies hugely by program/school/faculty/major. And the grading average and curves are extremely dependent upon major. My point is simply to point out that one’s experience in a given major in a given school is not representative of a whole university, let alone a whole country’s universities. i would say that at both US and Canadian publics, it is difficult to make gross generalizations because there is so much variety. </p>

<p>Sales tax depends upon province, in some provinces there is only one tax, others two but the total varies from 5% to 15%, and current economic estimates put cost of goods at anywhere from 12 to 30% higher (depending upon goods and analyst).</p>

<p>Shawbridge’s perspective on student’s choice of major doesn’t resonate with me at all. I’m not saying its wrong, I’ve just never seen what he’s referring to. I see endless undergrads - I would say the vast majority - who go into sciences or arts, and really have no idea what they plan to do (other than some kind of major). Just like major US publics, you literally will have 4000 students going into arts at a given university…few with any real concrete career plans (as but one example). Not to mention, I think they are as inclined to change their plans/majors/actual occupations just as frequently as similar aged American students. There is somewhat more earlier focus, given you apply to faculties rather than the whole university, so many will ask what you will study (which means which faculty at which school), but movement between faculties is not unusual at all and often pretty easy to do (especially if one starts out by getting into the ‘less competitive’ faculty and the moving over after a year to the one they really wanted.</p>

<p>Starbright, my small sample contains 6 Canadian university tours, a bunch of US university tours, a number of relatives, and a number of kids we’ve met in Canada (friends of family, etc.) plus the questions we hear from Canadian universities. At every Canadian school we visited and and whenever my daughter meets Canadian adults, they ask, “What are you going to study?” In the US, if they ask at all, they ask, "Do you know what you might want to major in? The presumption in Canada appears to be that you should know your major going in. Not all will, but the expectation is that you probably do. In contrast, US adults just wouldn’t ask, “What are you going to study?” because we don’t think you go to university to study one field. The ethos really is notably different. </p>

<p>Plus, on tours, we were struck in our tours at the vocational focus of a lot of the kids when asked what they were going to study by the admissions officer on visits (or a parent) – a significant number of kids answered with what seemed really vocational like kinesiology, business (but especially marketing), journalism, etc. From my admittedly US perspective, how could a 17 year old know that she/he wants to be a kinesiologist? Of course, it is understood that kids would change – and I agree with you that the reality is that kids don’t really know what they want to do and thus switch majors as they learn – but again, at the Canadian schools we look at, you have to choose your major at the end of the first year in Canada compared to at the end of the second year in the US. As a corollary, perhaps, as ashesatdusk notes, a higher proportion of a kid’s classes seem to be in the major field as opposed to in general exploration. [Note that in the UK you pick your major before the first year and then when you graduate, it is assumed that you had no idea what you were choosing and thus classics majors are considered qualified for i-banking positions. Canada is in the middle.]</p>

<p>I agree that there are differences between schools and differences between majors. My instinct is that the point you make (that there are pockets with lots of heavy professor-student interface even in large schools) is correct and applies at many Canadian schools and at the US state schools. I also think that small sample sizes are a problem, as is anecdotally focusing on specific majors. Data does matter. The big schools have average first year classes sizes that differ, but one can find them. Generally, they are pretty large. Here’s some data I pulled together in an earlier post:</p>

<p>Class Size Mount Allison McGill U. of Toronto
Average # of Students in 1st year Class 97 243 172
Percentage of First Year Classes taken with < 30 Students 14% 14% 12%
Percentage of First Year Classes taken with 30-100 students 51% 27% 10%
Percentage of First Year Classes taken with 100+ Students 35% 59% 78%
Percentage of Fourth Year Classes taken with < 30 Students 69% 31% 30%
Percentage of Fourth Year Classes taken with 30-100 students 26% 43% 41%
Percentage of Fourth Year Classes taken with 100+ Students 5% 26% 30%</p>

<p>While this doesn’t reflect all students’ experience, it does reflect the average experience.</p>

<p>shawbridge: According to that table, the average first year class at McGill has 243 students, significantly higher than UofT with 172 students per class. Yet the percentage of small classes (<30) at McGill is a bit higher than at UofT. The percentage of midsized classes (30-100) at McGill is significantly higher than at UofT. The percentage of large classes at McGill (100+) is way lower than at UofT.</p>

<p>The only explanation I can think of is that UofT may have a lower cap on large classes than McGill. Say 300 students versus 600? So UofT classes may be disproportionately large compared to McGill but there are no enormous classes?</p>

<p>tom, interesting question as to why. Maybe UofT does limit the size of first year classes, while I’ve heard that these days at McGill, some of the big first year classes exceed the size of the lecture halls and people watch them on TV screens (or maybe now from the web at their convenience, though my niece didn’t mention that). Your explanation is quite plausible.</p>

<p>I read that the simulcasting of classes in an overflow classroom was tried a few years ago at McGill but it was discontinued. I read here on CC that UCLA had at least one freshman class with 1100 students in the same lecture hall/auditorium. </p>

<p>I have attended a few conferences at Harvard that were held in a very large lecture hall in the Science Center that rivaled Leacock 132 at McGill. I assume that some Harvard classes are held in that room too.</p>

<p>My information may be dated and thus no longer accurate as it comes from kids who have graduated (though the youngest graduated this past spring, I think, or was the previous spring(?)). Simulcasting of classes was definitely happening when one of my nieces/nephews was there in the past few years.</p>

<p>There are a number of very large lecture classes at Harvard. My perception is that these come from very popular professors – celebrities almost who can a) pack a classroom; and b) usually teach extremely well – but I think average class size is much lower than at McGill. My information here could be dated as well, though it would be easy to find out.</p>

<p>Three of my five Ds have done their undergrad at U of T, as well as many nieces and nephews and innumerable friends’ kids. We have close family members and friends who have taught/are teaching there so have fairly extensive personal experience, anecdotal though it is. None of my Ds has ever been in a class with the numbers posted above, other than one D several years ago that was in an introductory Psych class that was held in Con Hall. This type of introductory course is suited to a lecture format and probably made little difference whether there were 50, 200 or 500 kids in the lecture hall. Typically, any class of this size, as rare as they are, would have tutorial/seminar sections which would be composed of maybe 15 or 20 students each. The bulk of their classes in first year were in the <60 range, with a few <20, similar to the experience of Starbright. Upper year classes were almost all in the 20 or less category. I don’t think that they or the other kids we know, or those we know who are profs there, are unique in their experiences. Having had my other 2 Ds attend U.S. colleges, one an Ivy and the other a large private urban university, the differences were not as large as some might think.</p>

<p>^I must admit that I am fortunate enough that my mother is an admissions counselor at TAMU. I just don’t like the place and I don’t fit in in this town. I want to get out of the atmosphere of texas but going out of state means paying way more than it’s worth. I think by going to Canada I am actually being more reasonable by spending about what it would cost for me to go to TAMU. I’m getting out and I’m saving money. To tell you the truth my goal is to live and work in Europe and truthfully I think Canadian school is more useful for that path.</p>

<p>I’m a dual national as well and grew up in Canada. Most of the Canadian universities have high standards and you will get a great education. However, you need to evaluate where your life is going long-term. If you plan to live and work in the US, I think it would be better to get a ABET accredited degree. While a Canadian degree is as good or better than an ABET accredited degree, it’s just more hassle getting it evaluated and paying the $300 to have it done. (I’ve been through this route since my BSEE degree is from Canada)</p>

<p>Also, the US degree will be more recognized and respected in the US. A strong Alumni association can also be extremely helpful for your career. </p>

<p>If money is an issue, select a good state school in Texas. In-state tuition is dirt cheap compared to private schools. By the way, many of the job opportunities are in Texas. I lived in Texas for many years and loved it there, great pride and friendly people.<br>
(But the climate is a big negative!) While the unemployment rate is high for now, the US is still the Land of Opportunity. That’s why so many immigrants want to come here, including Canadians. I certainly don’t have any regrets.</p>

<p>Unless you really want to make Canada home for the future, I’d choose a good school in the US. And like the other posts stated, it’s gets really irritating on how much the Canadians will belly-ache about the US. And this is a Canadian talking!</p>

<p>Best of luck … :)</p>

<p>The only thing I want to say is that tomofboston’s comment about urban experience in Texas. Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, Austin are some of the biggest cities in the country that offer an urban experience.</p>

<p>^But are they walkable with great public transportation (including subways) and no need for a car? I don’t think so.</p>

<p>I’ve never been to Austin and San Antonio, but if you think that Dallas and Houston offer an urban experience, we have totally different definitions of that term.</p>

<p>What would you suppose would be best for a person who plans to become an environmentalist? Which universities are best for this purpose? Which side of the border has more jobs? Also, how does the admission process compare between Canada and the US? I’m only a freshman but I plan to steer myself in the right direction in advance. I have heard that Canadian schools don’t necessarily look at class rank as much and are a little more lenient when it comes to grades. Also, I am really open to living/working abroad. I don’t have a deep desire to come back to the US after College. It’d be nice to keep it as an option but I really would like to go abroad for adventure.</p>