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There IS an analogous performance in a science fair. Your mentor isn't there when the judges come around at the fair for Intel finalists, or at ISEF, Long Island Science and Engineering Fair, Long Island Science Congress, etc. They ask you all about your research and you had better know what you are talking about.
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<p>Oh heck, I can explain Godel's Proof of the Incompleteness of Arithmetic, as well as Wittgenstein's Tractatus and just about anything in Plato or Aristotle - no matter what questions you ask me --- but it doesn't mean I wrote the stuff, or did it on my own! Explaining for a few minutes is not performing.</p>
<p>I would argue that not only does that research compete fairly, but also that they have a broader impact upon the scientific world. In many cases, research done by these kids will be published in scientific journals and read by scientists across the entire world. Can anyone say that about high school projects? For the most part, no.</p>
<p>Not analogous at all. Udel and Karolyi's gym recruit the best from around the country. Soozie's D skied for her HS team, and learned to ski, as far as I understand, locally. Similarly, we're talking about 12 kids from a local, non-magnet school, we made the finals of something akin to the Olympics.</p>
<p>"Moreover, it is not as if universities are available to students all over the USA."</p>
<p>Totally disagree. They are. There are universities in every single state. This is not simply about proximity or wealth. I acknowledge that those are helpful, but they are NOT necessary. There ARE students who do well in these competitons without mentoring. And there ARE students who do not come from wealthy close high schools who do well. These opportunities ARE out there for many students (though not all, just like with everything).</p>
<p>Sure, no-one is denying that the students put in hours of work into the project. But from start to finish the project was not theirs. They were being directed. The very concept and selection of topic, the research and thesis, the scientific language of the paper.....</p>
<p>Garland, of course the kids are selected, someone said it before on this thread - you don't think the mentors are selecting students? Of course they are! I wrote to numerous professors before finding a mentor. The program that Dr. Rafailovich supervises is a selective program with an application.</p>
<p>Chocoholic - The "scientific language of the papers" truly, truly is written by the students. I clearly remember writing my paper. I chose my words myself!</p>
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A high school student in a town adjacent to a world class research facility will have more access to labs and mentors.
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<p>Not necessarily. The students in the article are lucky to live near the Stoney Brook campus, and then lucky that the kids can get mentors and support there. We live a bicycle ride from a world class research university, but the labs and equipment there are totally not available to a high school student. First, there are concerns that someone not officially connected to the university may not be covered by the university's liability insurance if they were injured or damaged expensive equipment. Secondly, the university is overwelmed with trying to provide opportunities to its own students.</p>
<p>Nothing sceptical about Voronwe is saying.
Basically if a bright student was being micro-managed by a professor, and putting in hours * months into the project, of course he would be able to spit out information at the fair. The point is that there is neither originality nor genius here.</p>
<p>There are still success stories that remind me of October Sky. An Intel finalist on this board last year had a project based on calculations from backyard astronomy observations from a telescope she'd assembled herself, with support and mentorship from a local group of amateur astronomers.</p>
<p>It would be great to see more outreach done to encourage research among a wider group of high school students. The Internet has greatly widened the realm of possibilities for distance mentoring, especially for projects that don't require specialized equipment (like research in math, computer science, or social science projects), but there is something about face-to-face mentoring that is really valuable and inspiring to many kids.</p>
<p>We just left one such competition. Our daughter did quite well, 3rd place in overall, 1st in Amer Chem Soc. for Jersey.</p>
<p>There were hundreds of kids and entries. I believe most of them were of the belief that they were competing fairly. I don't believe they were. After the fair, many thought they were not. Not because they didn't win, but because of the projects that won: they were way beyond the means or the training of a high-school senior; I don't care if they were Einstein, they could not have done these projects independently, the way they have to do all their other high school work; the way we all expect high school work to be done in order to be graded fairly.</p>
<p>Should we extrapolate these assisted techniques to the classroom? Some students would be "guided" through their homework by grad students and University professors and some would have to take the text book home and do their own research on the internet?</p>
<p>Some students would have some very interesting grades, don't you think?</p>
<p>Ahh, that is already happening in the classroom, at least where I went to high school. Tutoring is a big industry.</p>
<p>Maybe what we need is to have is more articles like the one in the NYT so that everyone is clued in. I can see the problem with believing that everyone is doing research on their own, and then finding that is not the case. That seems to be a bigger problem than the mentored research in the first place.</p>
<p>PS. I don't mean to belittle your daughter at all; her accomplishments are very impressive! Congratulations to her and to your family!</p>
<p>I agree more information needs to get out there, but I do not find the "tutoring" situation to be analogous.</p>
<p>A better analogy would be that the student had take home exams, that they would do and learn from at home, but under the guidance of a team of grad-students/professors. They would then return to school having learned all the answers and why they are correct, they could even repeat and explain them; however, they would have been shown not only how to come up with the answer but what the answer should be and is, by their "mentors" on an assignment that purports to test what they could do with their own abilities, accumulated knowledge and curiosity.
The rest of the students would have done it the old fashioned way, through frustrated and satisfying hard work and intuition.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to see how many students would put in that kind of effort if the first prize was a McDonald's meal.</p>
<p>Even at the elementary school level parents are ridiculously involved in school projects, and my child's shoe-box diorama sits proudly next to one constructed using power tools.</p>
<p>I'll bet that students who are genuinely interested in science wil continue to take advantage of the opportunities and put in that kind of effort regardless of what the end reward is. </p>
<p>Regardless of what kind of research that you are doing, it is frustrated and satisfying hard work and intuition.</p>
<p>$$$$$$$- don't you win $$$$$$$ for the Intel prize- it is a project that is presented in the end, who knows how it got to that place...there needs to be some honor in the system.</p>
<p>On the other hand, we see the skater skating, , we see the muscian playing, we see the actor acting, we see the skier skiing, that is the difference, we see the debater, debating....gee, you think they added the SAT writing section cause they trust what they get in the applications?</p>
<p>I know people will still disagree that this is similar, but for anyone who is in the area, you can go talk to all the intel finalists for yourself in washington this weekend. In my opinion this is better than seeing the "skater skate" because you can ask all you want about the role of the mentor. I'd love for someone to go do that and report back to all of us!</p>
<p>I liked this part of the article: "The nice thing about working with high school students, says Dr. Rafailovich, is they're so anxious to find a project, they're willing to try out theories that are "a little crazy" but need to be tested. Grad students are often too worried about getting a degree and making a living to take that chance."</p>
<p>We live in a society which glorifies athletes and athletic accomplishment and is anti-elitist when it comes to achievement in any other realm (except of course being rich and thin). Donald Trump can make a TV show about the high school graduates beating the pants off the college grads doing various moronic stunts which allegedly show that intellectual accomplishment is devoid of any substance. Exhibit A.</p>
<p>This thread is Exhibit B. </p>
<p>Our local high school has never had an Intel semi (I'm not aware of anyone who has even tried to compete) despite our proximity, using public transportation, to several world class research facilities. People here would rather that their kids spend their free time selling candy bars to fundraise for the prom, or selling sweaters at the GAP, to pay for their car insurance on their late model jeeps or whatever the car du jour happens to be.</p>
<p>I think it's laudable that 16 year olds somewhere... not my town, but somewhere, anywhere, care about something other than learning to drive and getting high. The fact that it's science and may actually push the boundaries of knowledge, or help sick people, or prevent tragedy... well, that's the icing on the cake. Does that require adult mentoring and assistance? Absolutely.</p>