An Open Letter to Chandler -- Cornell v. Williams

Colleges and Universities A-Z Cornell University
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<p>So as a lot of you know, our beloved ChandlerBing is trying to decide between Williams College and Cornell University. I've laid out a couple of my thoughts here for him.</p>

<p>Keep in mind that there are really no drawbacks to either school, just differing strengths. But those differences can be important, depending on what type of student you are, and the most important consideration in this whole process is making certain that you find the school that is best for you.</p>

<p>I'll preface my comments by noting that I have a fair amount of familiarity with Williams. While I never considered liberal arts colleges as a high school senior, I had one good friend from my high school attend Williams, made the acquaintance of several Williams students while I was at Oxford, and interviewed many Williams students while I was employed in Boston. I also have worked with the former President of Williams (now the President of Northwestern) on several occasions, and have developed a strong respect for the school.</p>

<p>I also have one rainy October weekend in Williamstown to thank for a two-year relationship (with a Cornellian, nonetheless), but I am sure you don't want to hear about my romantic exploits.</p>

<p>Needless to say, Williams is an exceedingly good institution, and it plays the part of a small liberal arts college extremely well. It's hard to think of an academic discipline that Williams isn't good at teaching, and it is hard to find a Williams alum who wasn't satisfied with their experience in Williamstown. It fosters a tight-knit community where you will literally know everybody else in your graduating class by the end of your first semester, and you will likely know of everybody on campus by the end of your sophomore year.</p>

<p>Williams is also an extremely supportive place -- the administration will bend over backwards to make certain that you do well there. The friend from high school that I mentioned was actually kicked out of the school for deficient academic performance, twice, only to be welcomed back with open arms after taking some courses at a local community college, twice. I do not think that Cornell would have been as lenient.</p>

<p>I also think you will find Williams to be a fairly homogeneous place, not in terms of student backgrounds or interests, but in terms of student attitudes and personality. This can be a very good thing -- everybody on campus can be more or less friendly with all other students -- and you will find a lot of shared, common bonds with your fellow, random students.</p>

<p>Now, the bad news is that I don't think I am prepared to answer many specific questions about Williams. But the good news is that I can pretty much handle any question you may have about Cornell, and I do hope you have some questions for me.</p>

<p>The appeal of Cornell is that it offers a multitude of dynamic academic communities brimming with a certain unbridled energy that is hard to describe. The drawback of Cornell is... that it offers a multitude of dynamic academic communities that can be confusing and disorienting for the unfocused student. In this way, you really need to make Cornell for yourself, and this is the true strength and opportunity that a Cornell education will afford you.</p>

<p>This brings me to the two most distinguishing features of Cornell, in my mind:</p>

<p>1) Cornell's status as an undergraduate-focused research institution. Cornell is one of the research powerhouses of the country -- everything from molecular biology to critical theory, animal husbandry to restaurant management is actually studied (not just taught) at Cornell, and you will be taught by the individuals harvesting such knowledge. And because the vast majority of the Ithaca campus revolves around undergraduate life (just look at the percentages alone) you will have ample opportunities to interact, and work with, your professors.</p>

<p>One example from my own experience may be instructive here. As a student, I found myself interested in the biological underpinnings of labor market behavior late in my career. So as a senior, I decided to enroll in a couple of nuerobio courses, which included a rather fascinating lab on the social behavior of honey bees. I was concurrently working on my senior thesis dealing with the economic opportunities of females in the labor force, so I was naturally drawn to exploring the social division of labor of bees in their hive and how it contrasted with our own human experience. Needless to say, I soon found myself in a fascinating hour-long discussion with my nuerobio professor during his office hours, before returning to consult with me thesis advisor (a former president of the American Economic Association and most noted scholar of females in the labor force). Only at Cornell.</p>

<p>The undergraduate who doesn't take advantage of these types of opportunities -- be it an open invitation from a professor to discuss their work or a free lecture series on a random topic of interest -- is cheating themselves out of a part of their Cornell tuition.</p>

<p>2) The multitude of diversity you will find in Ithaca -- and I don't speak of political or ethnic diversity here. I speak of a diversity of attitude, interest, and background -- city slickers and poor boy farmers, theoretical mathematicians and food science majors, art-house goths and lacrosse-playing preps, design-obsessed architects and chromosome-surrounded biologists. This diversity will likely inform a large amount of your social interaction as you seek to find yourself during your college days, and will allow yourself to cast a wider social net throughout your college career and beyond.</p>

<p>So it may come as an initial shock when you don't immediately become good friends with everybody on your freshman floor, but I think that this is a silver lining to Cornell that is often only appreciated in hindsight. You will learn how to better work with people and all of the nuances of the outside world. And you will also learn more about yourself -- what type of people you like to surround yourself with, and what you want to get out of your fleeting amount of time on this world. And at a place like Cornell you will also be able to appreciate the vast diversity that is human life -- from the beer-swilling jocks who make a heart-breaking run in the NCAA tournament, the obsessive computer kids who seem to only appreciate efficient code and a witty phrase, and the ridiculously social Hotelies who want nothing more than to run a hotel for a weekend.</p>

<p>And I'll also let you in a little secret -- you can easily have a Williams-esque experience at Cornell. You can easily join an a capella group, compete in a club sport, live in a residence with all of your closest friends, and take upper-level seminars with brilliant professors. It's just that at Cornell, you will have a lot more options to explore, and Ithaca will be the proverbial oyster for the motivated student.</p>

<p>I will also note that it is important to look beyond the statistics at Cornell. A single data point or two can be extremely misleading for a school as diverse and as expansive as Cornell. There are more high aptitude individuals at Cornell than you will likely come across at any other point in your life. And medical school acceptance rates only matter for one person: you. That acceptance rate will either be a zero or a one, and your own work ethic and aptitudes are insurmountably more important than any institutional effect that may exist (of which I am doubtful that such an effect even exists.)</p>

<p>It goes without saying that there is a whole Cornell-CC community rooting for you to attend Cornell. And while we have never met, I can tell that your personality is particularly well-suited for our humble university in Ithaca -- you have an enterprising and curious personality, and I think you are the type of student who is best suited to take advantage all that Cornell would offer you. Perhaps your initial gut instinct -- to apply to Cornell ED -- was right.</p>

<p>One final metaphor that I think may be apt: Williams is tucked between three hills, a small academic community nestled comfortably among itself. Cornell is exposed on top of a large, wind-swept hill, with sweeping vistas of an almost infinite horizon -- a much larger research community exposed to the whims of the world.</p>

<p>The choice if yours.</p>

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<p>Very well said Cayuga.</p>

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<p>Oh, wow. It wasn’t directed at me, but it helped me as well.</p>

<p>Do an open letter to Bobaboy – Cornell vs UC Berkeley EECS, please. :stuck_out_tongue: lol</p>

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<p>As someone who regrets not having applied to small liberal arts schools, this post helped me great deal. It’s inspiring to hear that I can still have a small liberal arts school experience at Cornell, since I’m definitely going there come fall. Yay thanks CayugaRed!</p>

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<p>A very well written piece. I read the whole thing because we think our younger daughter maybe better suited for a LAC like Williams than Cornell. I am not sure if she agrees. It is very likely she will follow her older sister’s footsteps to Cornell.</p>

<p>A professor said to our older daughter when she was looking at schools, “LAC is good for first and second year students, by the time you are a junior or senior you’ll want what an university has to offer.” </p>

<p>I have met many of my older daughter’s friends from Cornell. I like what I see - smart, down to earth students. I like them so much, when there is opportunity for me to hire 2 summer CS interns this year, I decided to only recruit at Cornell (can’t wait for my boss to ask me why only Cornell students). The resumes I have seen are very impressive.</p>

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<p>Agreed. I tried hard not to make any negative remarks about LACs, as I think they offer a lot for a certain type of student. But I think most third-year students at LACs are itching to spend a full year abroad, and then come back for their fourth year a little bit claustrophobic. At larger universities (like Cornell), I feel that a lot of students wish that they had a fifth year to take advantage of all of the resources and opportunities available to them.</p>

<p>As my econometrics professor once told me, I would have attended Williams if I wanted to have my hand held.</p>

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<p>Frankly, you haven’t been around the boards as much as Chandler has, so I’m not certain I can speak to your particular situation. But generally speaking, if financial aid is not an issue, I would heartily endorse Cornell simply because it offers more support and opportunities for engineering students, per capita.</p>

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<p>Thanks Cayuga - I can’t wiat for my D to read this tonight.</p>

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<p>I will follow Cayuga’s lead and refrain from explicitly recommending Cornell. To be honest, I’m not even sure if I could. By many metrics, Williams can be considered the top school in the country.</p>

<p>But I can tell you how much Cornell means to me, in ways that I didn’t think it would when I enrolled 15 years ago. It’s only recently that I’ve come to appreciate how much today’s Cornell has been shaped by its founding principle to serve society, and how much better off we are thanks to this. I can’t begin to describe how proud I feel when I read about a discovery initiated by Cornell that serves to advance nutrition, or the science of sleep, or our knowledge of natural resources. What then goes through my mind is this: “I am associated with a school that is trying to do good things in this world.” </p>

<p>My true respect for Cornell began when I learned that in spite of its quirks and faults, from the start, its heart was always in the right place. As I believe yours is, Chandler. Good luck in your decision, and congratulations on two very wonderful acceptances.</p>

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<p>There’s a lot to be said for smaller classes, a more intimate environment, and a community of like-minded individuals.</p>

<p>On the other hand, perhaps just as much can be said, but not as nicely, about:
-relative limitations on course selection (which D1 encountered, attending an LAC much larger than Williams), and areas of study;

  • The particularly unattractive, to many, combination of a small student population with an isolated environment;
  • What happens if you dont really fit with the predominant campus culture, which has a real presence in these small schools; less people means less room to maneuver among groups.</p>

<p>Big school has perhaps just the opposite pluses and minuses.
Bigger classes may actually have some advantages; try ducking out of a 6-person seminar. At small LAC D1 once went to prof for help (no TA), & he deliberately put a question on exam in the precise area that he knew, from the help session, that she was bad at !! If she’d have gone to a TA for help, the prof. making the exam would not have known that or done that.</p>

<p>If you dont mind the size,location & campus culture, and want a liberal arts education, Williams would be a great choice; highly prestigious college. If you do mind any of these, then it’s less great.</p>

<p>You might want to look at this thread, esp. post #9:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/williams-college/386266-convince-me-apply-here-please.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/williams-college/386266-convince-me-apply-here-please.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Cornell also has its pluses and minuses, and a lot of them are different pluses and minuses, opposite even. So you just have to decide which set of pluses and minuses you think you’ll maybe prefer to deal with.</p>

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<p>Thanks, Cayuga. I read that in an email he sent me and it definitely changed the way I’m looking at the two colleges now.</p>

<p>However, I think the example provided by monydad is definitely a rare case for a Williams alum: most absolutely love it.
So I really don’t know. I’ll have to visit both schools during admitted student days and decided after that.
This is almost more stressful than waiting for decisions! Almost.
Though, I don’t think I could ask for a better position to be in.
Thanks guys!</p>

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<p>“…definitely a rare case for a Williams alum: most absolutely love it.”</p>

<p>Quite possibly, no first-hand knowledge.</p>

<p>However, in that post, the poster stated his views were shared by a number of his friends there, in addition to himself.</p>

<p>There are two highly prolific CC posters who attended Williams, back in the day.
Being LAC-type people, I imagine they both would prefer Williams to Cornell. But I don’t get the sense from either that they are absolutely in love with present-day Williams, and neither of their own legacy kids chose to attend there. Their kids chose colleges that had ready access to a larger number of people in less isolated locations, less emphasis on athletics, and possibility of extended course offerings via consortia. Among other differences, of course.</p>

<p>Both of them, I think, have cited the escalation in priorities on athletics as one aspect they don’t prefer, and ,might have kept them from choosing Williams themselves if it was like that back then, to the current extent. One of them seemed to feel somewhat out of place there the whole time, a person of modest means among a sea of privileged kids. And one or both have posted comments pertaining to its location and its implications, that are in substantial accordance with the views that the poster on the thread I linked expressed.</p>

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<p>I think visiting campuses should easily settle this. S looked at Cornell and didn’t even want to apply. He stepped on Williams’ campus and knew it was home.</p>

<p>I loved Cornell. Neither of my kids were moved.</p>

<p>Who can account for chemistry?</p>

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<p>Two completely different experiences. Just decide if you are a big or small school person. I am a big school person.</p>

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<p>Chandler- This is such a nice thread for you! How great it is that there are people out there that really want you at Cornell!</p>

<p>Well, as one who followed your saga from the ED days, I wish you the best of luck with your decision. It’s a tough one. One piece of advice: don’t let the fact that you didn’t get in Cornell during the ED round cloud your decision (and that was a big mistake on their part, by the way). There are too many excellent things about Cornell to let that get in your way.</p>

<p>My son was offered GT, so he won’t be there this fall. Off to Carnegie Mellon!</p>

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<p>“I think visiting campuses should easily settle this.”
Perhaps, but some thought should be given not only to what one sees now, but how it might look to you in a couple of years.</p>

<p>It was only as an upperclassman that D1 was adversely affected by limitations in course selection, at her much larger LAC, and desire for a bigger community and more places to go, as she had by then somewhat outgrown her significantly larger LAC . By then, it did not look quite the same to her, in exactly the same light, as it did when she visited the campus prior to matriculation, those few years before.</p>

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<p>yup what i did when looking at colleges…i looked at sample curriculums (although this was easier b/c i was in ilr)</p>

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<p>It seems to me that Chandler is obviously going to pick Cornell but is just pretending to have a tough debate about it due to the fact that Cornell deferred him… I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t pick Cornell</p>

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<p>Wow! Chandler, your own thread! You have become a celebrity I guess. </p>

<p>I wish nothing but the best for you and know you have to go with what feels right to you. No one can really know that but you. Gather information and then have a long talk with yourself. I know you will choose wisely.</p>

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<p>If it sways you more to Cornell:</p>

<p>I’d like to see you here :slight_smile: You are the quintessential HumEc student.</p>

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<p>If you choose Cornell, I will specifically set a meeting time with you and hit you with some of my classic jokes.</p>