Another applicant rejected from all Ivies.

<p>"Getting into Caltech proves only that he was the real thing in the way the Caltech defines the "real thing." "</p>

<p>Well, people were saying that the kid was probably not really an outstanding intellect and that his recs were probably lukewarm. Since Caltech only cares about academic talent and work ethic, I was saying that Ghosh must be the "real thing" in that respect. </p>

<p>But yeah, if we were talking about leadership or athletic ability, something which the ivies value, I agree that Caltech admissions doesn't say anything about that.</p>

<p>PG: </p>

<p>How can we ever know how the young woman in Chicago --- who virtually swept the field in acceptances to the several Ivy League colleges she applied to --- would have felt had she not been admitted to any of them? </p>

<p>Perhaps she would have been perfectly happy with one of her nonIvy choices, but honestly given where she applied, it isn't farfetched to imagine that she had her own dreams of attending an Ivy and that she too might have felt, as Ghosh did, deeply disappointed not to be admitted to her favorite one. I'm sure she would have been sensible and intelligent enough to get over it and be pleased with a nonIvy admittance, but I also think that young Ghosh will recoup and be happy to attend one of the fine universities that admitted him. Won't be a news story at that point, though. </p>

<p>Disappointment, even being temporarily devastated, over not getting the admission one had hoped for is pretty understandable to me. I didn't think their reaction was obnoxious, just a bit overblown considering the Duke-Rice-Caltech acceptances.</p>

<p>No, I am not comparing processes, but comparing <em>results</em> among different processes that are similarly subjective, because they must be.</p>

<p>No one's not calm but you. You're making a big deal out of nothing, but then so are many people on this thread. Folks, when there are multiples of more applicants than there are spaces -- for <em>anything</em> -- 2 things will happen. (1) due to time & statistical realities, some errors will be made; (2) equally qualified candidates will not be chosen. If you don't understand this, and are trying to make life a Utopia, then you do not live in an employment impacted region, where competition for intellectually stimulating jobs is fierce, due to massive oversupply of educated, skilled workers. It is a casual fact of life in my region that brilliant people are regularly laid off or not hired in the first place, due to no supposed blind spot or fault of the people doing the hiring but due to (please listen) OVERSUPPLY.</p>

<p>^^If you say life is unfair, I agree. In this case, if the kid didn't get close to 2400 in SAT II and he is only ranked 4th in the class, the admission results can actually be considered normal for an Asian kid.</p>

<p>Hello everyone,</p>

<p>I am the applicant’s father. I would like to address many things that have been said, so I apologize if what I write is hard to follow.</p>

<p>All the information in the article was accurate. Laura Heinauer took the copies of all the documents: acceptance, waitlist, rejection letters, official SAT/ACT scores, news release, son’s resume etc., but not everything I said made it to the article, and some things I said were not portrayed perfectly. She didn’t write about all of his state or national achievements, or his leadership information, etc. I told the news everything what I am writing here.</p>

<p>Why did I quit my job?</p>

<p>I did not quit my job to help my son get admission into college with ECs, etc. I quit my job to support my family. We did not even know the importance of volunteering, EC etc. until the end of my son’s 9th grade. The teachers and the counselors of his magnet Jr. high school (he was valedictorian two years in a row) never taught him the importance of EC or volunteering. He still did have many activities though. In Jr. high school (8th grade) my son hated his school’s PE class, so he started taking Kung Fu lessons for a PE waiver, and loved it. He started playing piano in 3rd grade just for fun, and his teacher used to come to our home. We had no idea that those two will be ECs one day. He also took Latin in Jr. High school, and fell in love with mythology. He continued to take Latin in high school and joined his school’s Latin club. And so on.</p>

<p>While I lived in Dallas, my wife took care of my son. She is not the CEO of Pepsi. I wish she were. She cannot drive. She is scared to death of driving, and always afraid of getting an accident. My son and I tried many times to convince her to try driving, but failed. When I drive, she even panics if a car drives by while she is sitting in the passenger seat. There was an HEB grocery store nearby, so they always walked to the store to buy groceries. My son was too young to get a driver’s license. My sister-in-law, whose son was in the same year and same school as my son, lived nearby, so my son always depended on her when he needed something: to go to kung fu (5 hours a week), the central library, competitions, to go to a store for something he needed for a project or to buy necessities, etc. My son is also very prone to being sick – he even had to go to the hospital twice because he had bacterial pneumonia last year. When I was in Dallas, he always depended on my sister-in-law to take him to the doctor.</p>

<p>But one day, my sister-in-law told us that she would be moving, and could not support my son any longer. At this point, my son, like most kids his age would be in the same situation, was frustrated with the idea of being limited in everything he wanted to do. Try telling your 14-year-old son that he cannot do anything but go to school and stay home.</p>

<p>Why didn’t we use public transportation or a cab? My son could have taken the late bus home from school, but he would arrive home every day at 7:30. Everyone that went to his school will tell you how heavy their workload was, and coming home every day at 7:30 was not an option. My son could have used a cab, but not to go everywhere. Many times he had to go to his school’s parking lot at 5 o’clock in the morning to go out of town for competitions for Latin Club or Quiz Bowl or Science Olympiad. When returning, he was always dropped off at school at 1 or 2 o’clock in the morning. His school is in a very bad neighborhood and far from our home, so my wife could never go there alone in a cab at night.</p>

<p>I wanted my son to move to Dallas and live with me. He applied to the School for the Talented and Gifted at the Townview Magnet Center (ranked as the #1 public high school in the US by Newsweek ’06 and ’07) and St. Mark’s School in Dallas for 9th grade and got accepted to both. But he decided that he didn’t want to leave his life and his friends behind, so he stayed with his mom.</p>

<p>The admission officers don’t know that I quit my job, because my son didn’t mention it in the application or his essays or anything. His guidance counselor does not know I quit my job either. Yes, I applied for financial aid, because I was unemployed, and I quit my job because it was necessary. I couldn’t find a job here.</p>

<p>Hopefully you now understand that I did not quit for my son’s college admission. I quit because my family needed me with them.</p>

<p>Why is son only 4th in his class?</p>

<p>I am not saying that my son should have been higher than 4th. The top 3 ranked students are very smart and they deserve their ranks. But there are other factors to consider.</p>

<p>First, his school is a magnet school. The school website states: “The Liberal Arts and Science Academy student body is composed of some of the most academically advanced students from the eleven public high schools across the city as well as area private schools. Because of this distribution, class rankings are not comparable to class rankings of students in traditional high schools.”</p>

<p>Second, in his school, AP classes are divided into two groups: AP magnet, and AP topics, and taught by different teachers. Topics is much harder than magnet and has a heavier load, but both classes carry the same weight. The school weighs Honors, AP magnet, and AP topics as the same (score 100 is 5, 90 is 4, etc. so 92 is 4.2). My soon took all the topics courses he could, including AP topics English, which the teacher said would prepare him very well for the advanced English in college. In AP magnet English, most students can receive high grades, but in topics, it was very hard to get even an A for a very good student. He also took the hardest classes available in his other subjects, like Modern Physics, and always received straight “As” from 9th to 12th grade. I never went to the teacher to argue about grades, as someone suggested. In 11th and 12th grade, he took 13 APs, bringing his total to 14 (I am counting AP Physics C as two). </p>

<p>Many of the students my son was competing with did not take the hardest courses possible. They also had “off periods” or “teacher’s aid” classes. I am not saying anything against them; I am only saying that you cannot dismiss my son just because he is 4th and not higher.</p>

<p>Someone in this thread said he wanted to know where the top 3 ranked students from my son’s school are going to college. #1 is going to USC. #2 is going to Colorado College. #3 is going to Rice University.</p>

<p>Why was he not a Presidential scholar?</p>

<p>Although he is a U.S citizen (born in Dallas in 1991), my son was not the PS candidate, because he received the perfect score after October ’07. One of his best friends (rank # 19) was a PS semifinalist with a score of 2340 (CR & M: 1600).</p>

<p>Why did he retake the standardized tests?</p>

<p>After my son got rejected from Early Action at Stanford (Stanford was tied for his first choice college. My son wanted to go there very much), he wanted to take those tests to boost his chances at other colleges. Otherwise, he never would have retaken them. And for everyone criticizing his decision to take the tests again, he received outside merit scholarships because of his perfect scores. </p>

<p>In 2004, one Korean student from his school got a 1560 for the first time and perfect 1600 later; he was accepted to both Harvard and Yale, but chose Yale.
In 2005, another Chinese student, who had the same piano teacher as my son, did the same: 1560 first time and 1600 second time, and was accepted to Harvard and Princeton, but chose Princeton for math major. Harvard did not flag them. So there is nothing wrong with taking the tests twice in the view of the admission office. My son also got 1560 (2340) first time.</p>

<p>Why did he take ACT after receiving 2400 on SAT?</p>

<p>He registered for both tests at the same time. After taking the SAT on January 26 ’08, he was very confident about the test and decided not to take ACT on February 9 ’08 if he got the score before that test date. He did not receive his SAT score online before then, so he took the ACT anyways. </p>

<p>Were my son’s perfect scores because of superscoring?</p>

<p>No, my son’s perfect scores were not because of superscoring and he did not take the SAT 13 times, as someone in this thread suggested. He took the SAT a total of two times in high school, and once in Jr. High because of the Duke TIP program. In 7th grade, he got a 1340 out of 1600. In January ’07, he got a 2340. In January ’08, he got a perfect 2400. He took the ACT a total of two times: 35 the first time and 36 the second time. He took the PSAT three times because his school paid for and made every magnet student take the PSAT from 9th to 11th grade.</p>

<p>What were his SAT II scores?</p>

<p>My son took three SAT II subject tests, each only once. He took Math II and Chemistry in 10th grade, and received 800 on both. He took Latin in 11th grade, and received 720.</p>

<p>Rejected from all Ivies?</p>

<p>My son never applied to all Ivies. He applied to four: Princeton, Harvard, Yale, and Wharton’s LSM program at UPenn. He was on Yale’s extended waitlist until one month ago. His other colleges were Stanford (Early), MIT, Caltech, Rice, Duke, and UT (Engineering Honors and Plan II Honors). He had sent his perfect scores only to Princeton, Harvard and Yale, so he was accepted to Caltech, Rice, and Duke with his 2340 score.</p>

<p>UT Plan II rejection?</p>

<p>My son applied for Plan II at UT on February 1, ’07 (last day) at 11 P.M. First of all, Plan II accepts students under a rolling system. My son’s friend was accepted in the month of November ’07 to Plan II. Second, my son was already admitted to Engineering Honors, and he did not even want to go to UT (his safety school), even with Plan II, so he did not spend much time on the application or the essays. I am not trying to make an excuse for his rejection. Maybe he didn’t deserve to get accepted to Plan II. But he did not take the application or the essays seriously.</p>

<p>Harvard doesn’t have Biomedical Engineering?</p>

<p>Someone in this thread asked why my son applied to Harvard if he wanted to go into Biomedical Engineering, because Harvard does not have that. Harvard does have a biomedical engineering concentration, but it’s called “Biomedical Science and Engineering” under Engineering Science.</p>

<p>Did I go to the interviews with my son?</p>

<p>I did not. I dropped my son off at the Starbucks, or the Library, where the interview took place, before the interviewer arrived.</p>

<p>Did my son give a terrible interview or write terrible essays?</p>

<p>I do not know how my son’s interviews went or how good his essays were. But he received a likely letter and acceptance to Rice and his Duke interviewer, after his acceptance to Duke, tried to convince him many times to go to Duke. His Harvard interviewer tried to sell Harvard to him the whole time, and only asked him one question at the end before leaving (although he was ultimately rejected from Harvard). He got accepted to Caltech, Rice, and Duke and the extended waitlist for Yale with the same Common App essay he sent to all the other colleges.</p>

<p>Recommendations?</p>

<p>His US History teacher and quiz bowl coach, and a science teacher gave his recommendations--- we do not know what was written in them, because he waived the right.</p>

<p>Calling admissions office many times?</p>

<p>My son leaves for school before Harvard’s office opens, and comes back after it closes, so he could not call. I called Harvard admission office only a couple of times. First time I asked (admission representative transferred me to an admission officer) if it is bad to retake the SAT, and the officer said that trying to improve 2340 is perfectly fine, but not more than three times. After Stanford rejection he found out that he forgot to mention volunteering, research experience etc. in EA application’s Additional Info (he had already filled up the application with everything else). My son was 16 yrs. old, and made a mistake (even the US President makes mistakes). Son talked to a Harvard admission officer only one time (on a school holiday), and asked how to submit the additional information to the common application (volunteering etc.), because he had already applied elsewhere (besides Caltech and Duke) along with Stanford. Rice wanted that by e-mail, but other colleges through the fax. In the end of Dec.’07 he decided to apply to both Caltech and Duke (he did include everything with the common application this time and got accepted in both). Neither of us ever called Princeton, Yale, Duke, and UPenn.</p>

<p>Why was my hand on my son’s shoulder in the photograph?</p>

<p>The photographer Kelly told me to put my hand on his shoulder. It was not my idea.</p>

<p>SAT Prep?</p>

<p>Yes, my son took a $900 SAT prep course. It was a total waste of money. The teacher taught many wrong things, according to my son. </p>

<p>Did I, an Asian parent, ruin my son’s life?</p>

<p>No, I did not. I hope other Asian parents on College Confidential will support me here. Asian parents do interfere in their children’s life only in a way so that their children don’t end up doing drugs, dropping out of HS, associating with bad influences, drinking alcohol, become a slacker, stay out until 3 AM partying, etc. We serve as their friend, teacher, guide, and etc., all-in- one. Sure, I wanted him to do well at school, and on his standardized tests, but I never stood over him to make sure that he got his apps in on time and well done, or demand perfect scores on his exams at school or anything like that. I am not an overly-domineering father; academically I never imposed on him anything. I pushed him as much as any parent who cares about his child would, but even then, my son pulled me along. I did not force him to do activities he did not want to. From middle school he was very much interested in math, science, English, history (his US history teacher was his favorite teacher ever), and Latin (he was in love with Greek mythology since 6th grade). He also loved to do Kung Fu, and that’s why he is now a Black Belt. His love of those subjects came from his heart – it was not induced by me. He is not only a math/science guy but also humanities guy. He is a truly well-rounded student. He thrived at Liberal Arts and Science Academy (LASA), a prestigious public magnet school, which separated from the local school LBJ this year (same building, but on a separate floor). Next year LASA might be in top 20 best schools in Newsweek’s report (this year rank of LBJ is 95).</p>

<p>Nobody can get 2400 only with intense parenting or practice; otherwise there would have been more than about 270 (out of 3.3 million – 0.008%) perfect scorers present in each graduation year. When the total possible SAT score increased to 2400 from 1600, the number of perfect scorers dropped about 73% (from 1000 to 270). Does it mean that students have 73% less intense parenting than before? No. Intelligence (not practice) plays a part here. My son was born perfectionistic. I haven’t raised him with unreasonable expectations out of him. He was born smart, so I raised him with reasonable expectations and he never became a slacker because of parental involvement. </p>

<p>By the way, we both love to play games, watch TV, watch movies, and spend time together. I have a very good relationship with my son.</p>

<p>There is one more thing I would like to say. A Pulitzer Prize-winning Harvard alumnus, author of the book “The Price of Admission”, Daniel Golden, called me after reading my son’s story in the news. A long time ago, unhooked students had a better shot at the Ivy League. In 1952, Harvard admitted 63% of its applicants. In 1974, Harvard admitted 14% of its applicants. (It had 11,166 applicants for 1600 seats in the freshman class). One applicant with 1410 SAT, top-10 class rank and one AP course was enrolled at Harvard in that year. That was Dan Golden. Now, an unhooked applicant with these credentials wouldn’t even dare to apply as in 2008, Harvard admitted 6% of its applicant (1660 out of 27,462). So % of acceptance decreased over the years. I admire the guy for publishing his stats in public. Dan Golden told me two major things: One: if my son hadn’t applied for financial aid he would have been accepted to Harvard – he claimed that admission is not need blind even though Harvard says it is. Two: he said that there is discrimination against Asians (a chapter in his book is titled “The New Jews: Asian Americans Need Not Apply”). I do not know how true these claims are, but so many people on College Confidential are criticizing and discriminating against my son and me (with many posts concerning our being Asian) without knowing the facts! If not Harvard, at least everyone in this thread who only had negative things to say about my son and me are guilty of discrimination.</p>

<p>I think I have answered all, or most, of your questions. Please don’t use the offensive adjectives and assume anything (or bet) without knowing the truth. </p>

<p>Now, my son is happy with the colleges he has been accepted to, and he is very excited to go to his choice in the fall.</p>

<p>This is my last post. Thank you to everyone who supported my son and me in this thread and gave us the benefit of the doubt.</p>

<p>This kid got into Caltech, pretty much HYPSM level. For someonw with a science bent it might be the best among the group. This kid has nothing to feel bad about.</p>

<p>Navidad - You son is a true intelligent young man and you are a wonderful father. You are the most sincere person on CC. I said this before on this thread after someone mentioned you user name. Unfortunately my post was deleted due to CC rules. Since you already revealed you user name by yourself, I hope it's OK for me to restate what I believe here. Best wishes to your son at Caltech!</p>

<p>Just saw the father's post. Good luck to your son - who knows CalTech might be the best place for him of all!</p>

<p>Umm, Ghosh isn't going to Caltech...</p>

<p>You don't get it because you don't understand Plan II at all. I live in Austin, and I can tell you, from discussions with faculty, that admissions to the program is so competitive that 40% of the decision is based purely on the 2 required essays. 40%!!! GPA/Rank/SAT scores all combined are only worth 20%. ECs are 20%, and they call the last 20% "Plan II-ness" which is basically their way of saying whether or not they like you as a person and whether or not you're right for the liberal arts (which is what the program is centered around).</p>

<p>A Plan II education is consistently proven to be equivalent to that of an Ivy League school, based on the quality of professors, graduates' admission and success in law/med school, etc.</p>

<p>On the whole, I'm actually more surprised he got turned down by Harvard then by Plan II, since 40% of the decision is essay only, and since he's probably more of a science than a liberal arts guy (considering her applied to MIT).</p>

<br>


<br>

<p>That is what it is all about! Good luck in the fall.</p>

<p>Did he get any merit money from the places he got into? He probably got a National Merit Scholar award from Rice which is awesome.</p>

<p>BTW I know two Vals with 1600s and great ECs who didn't get into HYPS (one was WL at Princeton and Stanford, the other WL at Harvard). One of them got into Dartmouth and Northwestern HPME, the other got a full ride from WashU and took it.</p>

<p>Navidad: </p>

<p>Good for you for posting your side of the story and clearing up some of the misinterpretations and weird speculations about your son's admission outcome. How fascinating that Daniel Golden called you to give his insights after reading the article. Time to move on, obviously, so best of luck to your son whatever university he chose.</p>

<p>That was a very nice post to read, Navidad. I wish you and your son the best of luck: he sounds like a great kid, and you a great father.</p>

<p>Folks on CC can sometimes pile on and criticise with very little provocation. Sorry you had to experience that, Navidad. Your brilliant son will do wonderfully and bring great honor to his familiy.</p>

<p>I personally believe that getting accepted into CalTech is more of an accomplishment then getting accepted by Harvard, and I can understand the frustrations of not getting into your dream school, but sheesh, the schools that he did get accepted into are nothing to squawk at.</p>

<p>Yeah guys Ghosh is going to Rice. I didn't bother to read this entire thread because it's so long. I would like to address a few issues that i saw at the beginning of this thread.
1) He didn't sign up for an SAT/ACT class. However, he did study his butt off from middle school and onwards. Additionally, he took the SAT more than three times despite getting in the 2300 range his first time. He actually sacrificed a quiz bowl trip in Oklahoma just to take it again for a perfect score.
2) The rumor is that his dad was actually an engineer of some sort and that his company fired him because they preferred younger engineers. So, instead of finding another job, he just decided to help Navo.
3) My school (The Liberal Arts and Science Academy) did not have 56 National Merit Finalists. Rather we had 56 National Merit Finalists, Semifinalists, and Commended students (which is much less impressive). But yes, it IS one of the best schools in Texas, is selective (really though, the most filtering comes when students decide whether or not they want to wake up at 6 AM and wait for 30 minutes to one hour just to get to and from school) and filled with motivated students, and a part of the NCSSSMST.
4) Although Navo got rejected by these colleges. There were two other kids in his grade (one with a class rank of 7 and another with a class rank of 1) who got into Caltech, MIT, Columbia, Stanford, etc. etc. because of their extracurricular activities and accomplishments (Siemens Regional Finalists and Semifinalists, NHS President, etc.). Many other kids got into UT Plan 2. So yes, EC activities and awards can be seen as the "X factor" for admissions into top colleges.
5) Also, the Statesman has it wrong. Harvard was his DAD's dream school.
So specifically in response to NorthStarMom's post: the number 1 kid in Navo's grade got into MIT, Stanford, Columbia, USC, UT, and some other colleges. She chose USC over those colleges because they offered a full ride and guaranteed research.</p>

<p>Hi,</p>

<p>I am Navonil Ghosh. I never actually had an account on CC before, but I just made one to respond to an_enigma, since my dad promised that was his last post.</p>

<p>I would first like to say that I know what your real name is, an_enigma, from reading your previous posts. You wrote in one of them that you don't know me very well. From what you wrote in this thread, that's obviously true. You are wrong on many counts, and you shouldn't have posted anything here without reading my dad's post.</p>

<p>Note: The numbers correspond to an_enigma's points (I didn't forget to use 3 :p).</p>

<p>1) First of all, I did not take the SAT more than TWO TIMES in high school. My dad already addressed this in his post, so I'm not gonna waste my time repeating it. Second of all, I did study, but not "from middle school and onwards." You don't even know me. How are you coming up with this assumption? I studied for the PSAT, and then for the SAT in high school, like MOST high school students do.</p>

<p>As for the quiz bowl trip: First of all, the competition was on January 19th in Tulsa. I took the SAT on January 26th, NOT when the the quiz bowl competition was. Furthermore, I had bacterial pneumonia in December and was hospitalized TWICE. It took me a few months to recover. There was a blizzard in Oklahoma during the time of the Quiz Bowl trip, so naturally in my condition, I could not go. And one more thing - my team was not even the one going to the competition. My coach just asked me to compete with the other team because the fourth member of that team couldn't make it either. I didn't sacrifice anything.</p>

<p>2) Whoever started this "rumor" knows nothing about my family. My dad was never an engineer. And, if you actually paid attention to the article or what my dad wrote in his post, you'd find out that he quit his job in Dallas TO SUPPORT HIS FAMILY.</p>

<p>4) Your information is incorrect. I know the two people you're referring to much better than you do. You were a sophomore, and I was a senior with them. Yes, they both were accepted to MIT, but that's the only thing that your statement of "Although Navo got rejected by these colleges" applies to. I never applied to Columbia, USC, or most of the colleges the #1 and #7 students applied to. Furthermore, neither of them were accepted to Stanford. And the #1 ranked student never even APPLIED to Caltech. And yes, many other kids did get into Plan II. One of them was ranked 39th or so, consistently never did work and thus his grades showed it, and only did Math and Piano for EC's. I'm not trying to say I deserved Plan II. Maybe I didn't. But you can read my dad's post for more information about that.</p>

<p>5) How are you even coming up with this? Are you my dad's best friend? Does he secretly confide in you when he's not taking care of his family? Harvard was my dream school. Any of my best friends can tell you that.</p>

<p>an_enigma, I know exactly who you are, and I would appreciate it if you stopped spreading lies about me and my dad on this public forum.</p>

<p>Thank you.</p>

<p>Unfortunatley someone is STILL missing the big picture that there would NOT be any need to clarify elements of a story had the story remained untold to begin with. None of this negative slants would have occured had this family found the common sense of NOT broadcasting their entire life in a newspaper. Uttering the word NO to a journalist is not that hard. </p>

<p>Further, there wouldn't be any need to defuse lies had this thread remained buried in the arcanes of this forum. This story was closed and forgotten until someone found a visceral need to reopen it and reopen the silly allegations of discrimination and a ludicrous quotation of Golden on financial aid. </p>

<p>Sowing and reaping are linked.</p>

<p>Thank you, xiggi, those were my thoughts exactly.</p>