<p>about one high school's valedictorian who graduated with the top GPA but never attended classes at the school. She was dual-enrolled at a local community college and apparently took all her classes there. Not surprisingly, the high school students were less than enthused about hearing a graduation speech from a complete stranger, however high her GPA, and resisted the idea (not all that politely, either). The val withdrew as a grad speaker, while reminding us that she'll always have the school's #1 ranking.</p>
<p>Call me old-fashioned, but give me the days when a class valedictorian was actually a member of the class.</p>
<p>The other side of the story.
My S took AP-Physics and AP Calc in 8th grade. Naturally, he was not in 8th grade math or science. And because his schedule had to be tweaked, he was in two different humanities/social studies groups, and thus could not qualify for a prize as "best"student in either of these groups. So at graduation, he was eligible for none of the prizes, math, science, humanities, social studies. The teachers concocted a new-fangled prize (poetry!) so that he could get to walk on the stage at least once. But who cared? He got 5s on his APs and everybody knew he was the best math/science student the school had, had had and was likely to have for quite a while.<br>
To continue the story: S graduated early, so he did not qualify for val or sal, either. But he knew he would not and could not care less.
Props to the "val" for doing so well at the community college. She must have earned great grades there to qualify for val, not just taking courses and earning Bs and Cs.</p>
<p>Where I can certainly understand both of these perspectives and realize that there is frustration inherent in each situation, I think the more confounding situation is that of marite's son. Though my son was not as advanced in math/science as hers, he did take all of his math during his senior year at the local college (at pretty great expense to us, I might add) because there were no more math classes left for him to take at his high school. He completed more math than any other student at that school (with straight A's); nevertheless, he did not receive the departmental math award as he was already being given the science departmental award, and they would not award him both, despite his top-of-the-class standing in both areas.</p>
<p>My son, who had taken the toughest schedule (including college classes) of any kid in the h.s. lost val status (he ended up #4) because the school ranks on the basis of UNweighted grades. The girl who was just above him scored a 25 on her ACT. NONE of the top five kids got to give the grad speech....our school leaves it open to the top 10% to submit speeches, and the two who garnered that honor have families that are fery well-known in our small town (one speech centered around rubber duckies, and the speaker brought his own rubber ducky to the podium with him). S was the ONLY one in our district to receive a Byrd Scholarship, and that was never mentioned once, not even at the awards ceremony specifically designated for such things.</p>
<p>If there is going to be erring on either side, I guess I'd rather see it on the side of honoring the top academicians who have put in that time and effort, even if that time was spent at the local community college if the high school was unable to meet the needs of the student.</p>
<p>Your S got to attend Duke; I'll bet the student ranked ahead of him with the 25 ACT did not! The val and sal in my hs are attending great schools--as they deserve. One of them is at H.</p>
<p>Yes, all of that is water under the bridge now...In fact, my son was the only one from the school to gain acceptance to ANY elite college (and the first ever from his school to be accepted at Duke), though admittedly, there were precious few applications to any (four to WashU, none accepted). Of the other top five, two went to KU and two went to Wichita State University. ~berurah</p>
<p>Wow - there's certainly no shortage of nutty valedictorian stories! (Perhaps they're all nutty in their own way.) What I found surprising about the Florida story was that the young woman in question, obviously a gifted and exemplary student, had taken NO classes at the high school from which she received her diploma - ALL her classes were taken at the community college. Florida offers a joint program for students to earn their high school dipoma and cc credit simultaneously. It's probably unique to have a student like the one in the story, who never attends the high school; it's just hard for me to get my brain around the idea that someone could be a class valedictorian without attending the school AT ALL.</p>
<p>A brilliant young man graduated from our hs a few years ago (our babysitter's younger brother, in fact). He took his first high school math classes in elementary school, maxed out the hs math curriculum by 8th grade, and took grad-level math classes at the local university by the time he graduated. I don't know how his GPA was figured, but he was not that year's val - who knows why? (Don't vals tend to be more all-around top performers than actual geniuses?) However, he received math awards each year - not the ones designated for top performance in AP Calc, obviously, since he was so far beyond that, but always for special excellence and outstanding ability.</p>
<p>If he had been val, I think he'd have been cheered on by his classmates and the rest of the community, despite having been out of the building for several hours each day, because he was still very much a part of the life of the school. </p>
<p>I don't know how it would feel to hear a graduation address from someone who'd never actually attended - kind of unsettling, I imagine.</p>
<p>Ah. I did not realize that the student had never taken a single class in high school. It makes me wonder about why she was considered a high schooler at all. I know of some people who skipped high school altogether They are considered homeschoolers and take their classes in college. Obviously, they would not be considered for vals or sals.
As for awards, our schools only consider classes taken at the schools. Shrug.</p>
<p>I, too, can see how there would be some pretty fierce objection to that...It really IS a strange situation. I know that the kids (and parents) want to feel that the val and sal have connection to the school....and community. That's why the teachers on the speech selection committee at our school selected the more "popular" local kids (whose parents had some local prestige) rather than the top academicians to give the speeches <em>sigh</em>.</p>
<p>I don't think Val status is meant to be conferred on who is the smartest student. It is for the student ranked first in the class who has taken the curriculum at that school and who had the best GPA at the school. It is hard to compare grades, etc. taken at other institutions with those taken at the school conveying class rank. The student in the article had taken NO courses at the high school. She is to be commended for her exemplarary record in the classwork she chose to take. I can see how students would find it not comparable for ranking purposes for someone's grades in another curriculum at another school to be used for val status at the high school. Her accomplishments are not diminished by not being val. Her GPA and her challenging curriculum speak for themselves in college admissions, let alone met her needs. I think if she had taken a course here or there at a college and that was figured into her GPA, that would be one thing but her entire curriculum was taken at another school. I also think for the purposes of being the speaker at graduation, that it would understandably bother many that the student had not truly attended the school even if her diploma is conferred by the school. </p>
<p>While those who take courses outside of school for further challenge and so forth, may risk it affecting rank or award status, the reason to take the courses overweighs that. As far as college goes, colleges like to see those who challenge themselves and so those choices will have other pay offs, so to speak. </p>
<p>As far as unweighted GPA being used for rank, I prefer weighted GPA. Our school used unweighted GPAs only. Thus those who took the easiest classes could become val, sal, etc. The sal and third person fit that description. While my D was val and had taken the most challenging courses, as well as went beyond the HS curriculum, it just turned out that way. However, she did develop a policy for future students in her school that was adopted by the school board to use weighted GPAs which our school had never had before.</p>
<p>
[quote]
[The val] was dual-enrolled at a local community college and apparently took all her classes there.
[/quote]
And now... for the rest of the story.</p>
<p>Both my sons, who took college classes starting in the ninth grade, were penalized for it in terms of class rank. The HS grades and ranks on a 100-point scale whereas the uni grades on an alphabetic scale. So while my kids were taking diff EQ and calc 3, university (calc-based) physics and chemistry with labs, C++, etc. and getting A's, the HS recorded their grades as a middle-of-the-A-range 96. Their classmates taking much less challenging regular-track or honors and AP classes with rampant HS grade inflation got their 99's and 100's--weighted, to boot, in the case of honors and AP.</p>
<p>Any kid in our HS who elects to take college classes (which they have to qualify for through testing and GPA thresholds) has to accept going in that s/he will never get to be val or sal.</p>
<p>The designation "valedictorian" has, at most, generally only meant "biggest fish in this small pond," and that's why I think it is nutty to worry too much about who is designated valedictorian at a particular high school among the more than 20,000 (or is it more than 30,000?) high schools in the United States. My high school graduating class had five valedictorians and twelve salutatorians, only two or three of whom were really smart, intellectually engaged learners. One football player from my high school, who was not an academic award winner at that level, is the only student in my graduating class who went to a top national college. </p>
<p>My four grandparents include a couple who were valedictorian and salutatorian of their high school class--I can never remember which was grandpa and which was grandma--and they each got a town scholarship to attend either of the two LACs in their town. So I suppose in the old days there was a little bit of meaningfulness in being a val or sal--for sure neither of my grandparents could have gone to college without the town scholarship--but today it's really not that big of a deal. Really, it's just not that big of a deal, because when hundredths of a grade point calculated over course schedules that differ from student to student separate val from sal, or sal from non-honoree, colleges, scholarship programs, and everyone know not to take the designation too seriously, especially in a country in which vals number in the tens of thousands.</p>
<p>We just have news that our HS will likely discontinue class rank, and I am glad. The jockying for GPA and the scheming to take only classes that were weighted really annoyed me. Many dropped out of fine arts courses and even figured how to delete gym so as to not have any non-weighted classes to mar the GPA. I know that his participation in the music program probably kept S from val/sal status (thus, probably affected financial aid at some schools).</p>
<p>While I think the eliminating rank is probably a good thing, I wonder if it will be a liability when it comes time for my D to do her college applications since she will probably have a high ranking.</p>
<p>While I am in full agreement with you and have, as a result of seeing how this whole thing played out at my son's h.s. last spring, come to view val and sal assignment very differently than I used to, there are still repercussions from the selection. </p>
<p>Just a quick example: My son applied to the University of Miami last year. He was fortunate enough to have been accepted with the Bowman Foster Ashe Scholarship, a lovey 3/4 tuition scholarship. As a result of some inquiry by my son, however, he came to find out that the ONLY reason that he did not receive a full tuition scholarship was due to his #4 ranking rather than a #1 or #2 ranking. All other criteria were in place, including ACT score, etc. for the full scholarship. </p>
<p>I so wish that, given the often arbitrary nature of val and sal designation, colleges would de-emphasize this honor in favor of other criteria. </p>
<p>I agree, GPA is totally meaningless for comparison purposes unless everyone takes the same classes. When you take the SAT, EVERYONE takes all three pieces- math, reading, and writing. But you get to choose your classes. If you're not strong in science, why take physics and chemistry if you can take ecology and anatomy (which are easier at our hs). If you stink at it, avoid classes that involve writing like the plague. Some kids take AP music and art, rather than calculus and statistics. If your school averages in all classes, why not take weightlifting and basket weaving for electives rather than computer programming? Unless everyone is taking the same thing, how can we say who achieved that highest level of academic performance?</p>
<p>I agree with the poster who said "it's really not that big a deal", except for berurah's point about possible money, which certainly is signficant.
Remember the book "Is There Life After High School?" ? In the grand scheme of things, either 1) being elected val/sal is the biggest thing in your life, which would be very sad; or 2) being elected val/sal is not the biggest thing in your life, which means you've gone on to make a real contribution. Val/sal should not be something to dwell on the rest of your life. What is more important is how it's handled, since if the school is going to do it, it should be done right. Justice should prevail.</p>
<p>BTW, in our area, going to community college means you'd be taking courses no where near as hard as the HS courses. I'm surprised to hear about your areas, where (if I'm understanding some of you correctly) it seems you view attending cc classes as a challenge. Where I live, taking cc classes would be like putting a student from the top track into classes with the bottom track, and being surprised that they get A's. But I guess every place is different.</p>
<p>Val status in my school is considered using weighted GPA. But that doesn't mean much, not really.</p>
<p>I'm in a magnet school right now and we specialize in computers. There are many hard class that you can take so that you can have the skills to work in the computer industry but they are not considered honors class by the district. So, no added weight to your GPA. </p>
<p>Each person is required to take at least one computer class as part of the program but I've seen kids try to get out of their computer classes just so they can take honors and AP classes. And, what's sad is that somem counselors actually let them. </p>
<p>I think it's all a big circus nowadays. I mean, sure, it'd be nice if I graduated valedictorian (I'm ranked 1 right now, but I'm only a junior so no guarantees there) but really, the steps some people will take to get the title is just insane. I really do agree that you can't compare kids who take different classes from different schools. AP Lang in my school is an EXTREMELY easy class but Botany is an EXTREMELY hard class and yet it doesn't even have honors designation (no added weight to GPA). </p>
<p>Really, val status doesn't have much meaning nowadays when a school can spit out 10, even 20 valedictorians. My mom used to tell me that when she went to high school, being val was a great honor and you really had to work hard for it. Now, barely anyone is breaking a sweat. It all mainly depends on the teacher and how he teaches.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I agree with the poster who said "it's really not that big a deal", except for berurah's point about possible money, which certainly is signficant.
[/quote]
As soon as colleges drop bragging rights to the most vals/sals in the freshman class, hayden, I'll believe it's not an important factor in admissions.</p>
<p>I agree with your point about lifetime achievement. I can't say being named val/sal was important to either of my kids.</p>
<p>Just to clarify... my kids only took one or two classes at CC while in the ninth grade. After that, they were in classes at a local uni. Both of them were fully dual-enrolled college students senior year of HS. One of them started junior year of HS and had to petition the school board directly to be able to do that. The local CC is pretty much a glorified HS, but classes at the uni are without doubt more difficult. One of my kids took a couple of the better APs at the HS but thought they paled next to college classes in the same subject. Both kids felt that the benefits far outweighed the inconvenience. They were able to take more advanced and in-depth subjects not offered in HS taught by profs with doctorates from top schools. One S stayed on to get his bachelor's there, graduating early.</p>
<p>My daughter actually graduated #1 in her class but had to give the salutatorian speech at graduation. Why? -because her school, which is on the 4x4 block schedule, only counted grades through the end of the 3rd 9-weeks term for purposes of val and sal. It just so happens that she had a lighter course load in the fall (not by her choice, but by the way her schedule worked in her small h.s.) and a full load of 3 APs and 1 honors course in the spring. (our school weights honors and AP grades, so it makes a huge difference) The girl who gave the val speech had the good fortune of having her schedule work out so that her tougher, weighted courses landed earlier in the year. So, when they computed GPAs early, the other girl's came out temporarily higher. Everyone knew that my d was going to end up on top, but that did not change a thing. Oh well, her final transcript said #1, but the plaque on the wall of her school has her listed as salutatorian. </p>
<p>The good news is that after all of our complaining, the local school board did change their time of final GPA calculation to the LAST day of school. It did not help my daughter's situation, but it did change things for the better for classes to follow (including her sister's).</p>
<p>My d has, thankfully, moved on to bigger, better, and more important things. She, like Berurah's son, has really found her niche at Duke. Little did we know, though, that there would still be class rank in college!</p>