Another question from me about D20's math choices for next year.

Applying to College
1

I asked a few months ago about AP Calc AB vs. AP Stats and you all were very helpful. She’s now in the process of choosing her senior year classes and asked me to come back here and again prevail upon the communal CC wisdom:

She doesn’t think she can take AP Calc AB (which was the general consensus here) because she’s been in college prep math all these years (she’s received As and A pluses, but she still doesn’t think she can be placed in it.)

Her choices then become Calc Honors or AP Stats. She’s torn between wondering if the AP means more or Calc means more. Thoughts?

If you weren’t involved in my previous thread: she’s a junior at a very competitive, large, northeastern public school. She has a 4.286 unweighted GPA (A pluses count as 4.5) and a weighted around 4.7; and a PSAT score of 1430. She’s looking at schools like Vassar, Tufts, Wesleyan. She took one AP as a sophomore, is taking 3 now (and getting As and A pluses), is taking Pre-Calc now (has an A plus) and was hoping to take 5 next year, but I don’t want her to take AP Stats just because it’s an AP. I want her take what she’s interested in but also what schools would like to see.

Thanks for any advice.

2

I personally think she’ll get more out of taking H Calc.

3

It depends on her intended major, but, overall, I’d think Calc is more applicable across fields of study. I was in a similar situation my Senior year, and I think I chose the wrong decision. It was between AP Stats and Multivariable Calc, and I chose the AP to boost my GPA. While I do enjoy Stat, I think I would’ve gotten more out of Multivariable. It is what it is, though.

4

Agreed.

Hopefully others can avoid this trap. As a senior, colleges will only see the fall semester grades when making admissions decisions. The impact of a one semester non-AP class on a 3.5 year GPA is akin to a pimple on an elephant’s butt. Oh, and most colleges will look at UW GPA anyway, or recalculate since there is no standard for weighting.

5

Note that AP calculus AB will cover material at a slower pace than calculus in college. In theory, college prep math through precalculus should be sufficient to prepare a student for calculus in college. In practice, some high schools have low quality math instruction, so that students show up at college with weak algebra, geometry, and trigonometry skills, leading to struggles in calculus in college.

A high school calculus course that is less rigorous than AP calculus AB may emulate a calculus for business majors course in college, but different high schools may choose differently.

http://math.tntech.edu/e-math/placement/ is a math placement test from a college that can help her assess how well she knows high school math and whether she is ready for calculus.

6

I think honors calc will be viewed as a more rigorous course as compared to AP Stat.

7

How can a student with the excellent grades your D has not get into AP Calc?

8

@suzyQ7 because the prerequisites are that she take honors math classes and she has taken college prep level.

9

My daughter is currently a senior. I asked her to weigh in. She said to consider a couple of factors. If her intended course of study is STEM then she should take calc. If she’s interested in more liberal arts or humanities then she should take stats. She could also call one of the schools and speak to an admission counselor. Some schools want 4 years of math and don’t consider stats a math, rather a social science. Although I think most consider it a math. Some schools prefer stats because it’s a different way of thinking.

  • My daughter also said that at her recent Tufts interview she was told that Tufts specifically looks for rigor. They care less about the grade if you can demonstrate rigor. Based on that I think AP Stats would look better compared to Honors Calc.
  • In my opinion she should take the class that interests her most and she could earn the best grade in. Most colleges tell you to take the AP and get an A… lol
10

So her current precalculus is not honors? In that case, I get it. My D is in the same situation except she has room in her schedule to take both calc and AP Stats. But she’s taking regular Calc.

11

Wesleyan likes to see calculus on the transcript. So if that’s a school she’s interested in, she should take it.

12

My impression is the same as the previous commenter: that colleges like to see calculus on the transcript.

That said, and outside the focus of getting into college, to me this is one of the failures of the American school system. There is no reason for calculus to be considered the “pinnacle” of math coursework. This isn’t the 18th or 19th century. Most people simply don’t use it and will forget it within months of taking it.

Instead, the school system should leave calc to college, for those who need it for a specific field of study (like engineering), and REQUIRE a full year of statistics and a full year of finance of high school students. Statistics is the math of chance, and we all use it every day from understanding everything from election polls to weather forecasts. Finance (to include budgeting and understanding mortgage interest and making investment decisions) is the most useful thing anyone can learn in today’s world, period–especially for girls, who are at risk of being taken advantage of by men who try to bully them into making poor money decisions, whether it be a controlling husband or a car salesman.

I know that’s an off-point rant, and I imagine your daughter will probably take statistics in college. However, if she has room to take it as an elective alongside calc as a senior, to me it would be beneficial.

13

I also agree that H Calc is the best option.

14

For those students who will take calculus, it may be better to take calculus first and then take calculus-based statistics (which may be required for some majors that require both calculus and statistics). These same students may find a year long AP statistics course (non-calculus-based) to be too slow and unchallenging (since it emulates a semester long college course that is not generally considered difficult).

In terms of personal finance, that would be a good course to include in high school, but it probably needs only a semester, and a test-to-fulfill option should be offered. Also, it may need algebra 2 or integrated math 3 as a prerequisite, since understanding compound interest would be easier after learning exponential functions.

15

@RayManta

“Instead, the school system should leave calc to college, for those who need it for a specific field of study”

While we can debate the merits of your comment, it is simply not the way things operate in today’s world. My S did not take calculus in HS. When he took calculus in college he found that 95% of his classmates already had the material in HS. So for virtually his entire class calculus was a review while it was all new to him. He struggled to keep his head above water (saw professor in office hours, went to math center) and it consumed a lot of his time and energy that semester. He ended up doing fine (really great given his situation) but it was a jarring way to start college. His expereince is an important reason why I recommend students take HS calculus if possible. (My only exception to this recommendation would be if a student is 100% sure he/she will not need to take calculus in college.) And FWIW neither of my kids took AP statistics in HS and they did not have any issue completing two semesters of college statistics.

16

I agree with @happy1, the system is what it is. Not to mention that in many districts students are tracked in early middle school to reach calculus or beyond by the end of high school.

@RayManta - FWIW, my daughter also took stats, and personal finance was built into her econ course that was required for graduation (in addition to AP calc). I totally agree that for the majority of people those courses are more applicable to the real world. However, the OP is asking specifically about courses for college admission to competitive schools.

17

FWIW in our school district and a lot of the other ones around here (CA), there’s no such thing as Honors Calc and all precalc classes are equal to each other. There is no way one could be ready for some sort of calculus class in 12th grade that wasn’t AP. Kids who are on the ‘easier’ track are just not getting to calc at all in high school. Guess I’m saying I don’t really see a scenario where you’ve had precalculus already but you aren’t ready for AP Calculus.

18

I’m in agreement. If the school allows strong performers in CP Precalc to enter H Calc, then they should have experience with it. If the current math teacher and GC thinks it’s OK for the student, then it should be fine. But yes, calc is more beneficial than AP Stats, IMO.

19

@4gsmom - The math track my daughter was on starting in 7th grade was; Alg 1, Geom, Alg 2/Trig, Advanced Alg, PreCalc. All the students in her 11th grade PreCalc were recommended for AP Stats in 12th grade.

I contacted her PreCalc teacher and asked if she felt my daughter was ready for AP Calc AB. She said she was ready, so my daughter and I requested she be allowed to enroll in Calc AB. We were required to make the request in writing. I did this for multiple reasons.

The first reason is more selective colleges (she is a sophomore at University of Southern California) definitely want to see calculus on the transcript (also AP Chem, AP Physics, and AP Bio; but that’s another story). Most of her college visits specifically mentioned these classes.

Another reason is calculus in college goes at a faster pace than AP Calc and is often used as a weed out course. There are always math savants in any college course and they will blow the curve, if the class even has a curve.

Being exposed to the concepts of calculus in college for the first time can feel like getting hit by a truck. My brother, a straight A student in high school math, changed his major after getting clobbered in his college Calc.

My daughter received a B grade in the AP Calc. However, there were several teachers who taught the course in her high school. Her teacher told the class that 90% of her students receive a 4/5 on the AP exam. So, her friends who had other teachers got an A in the class but my daughter got a 4 on the AP exam (her friends, for the most part, did not). This gave her college credit and her Calc 1 was satisfied. Her first semester schedule would have been; Chem, Bio, Calc, GE. That’s a very heavy first semester.

If you can request AP Calc and your daughter is ready, I would. If not, Honors Calc so she is exposed to calculus. AP Stats is viewed as one of the easier AP’s. My daughter took Stats in college and aced it.

20

A story which I hope you will not share, because there is no expectation from any college that an applicant needs 3 AP sciences.