Another "Send Music Supplement?" Question

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>I just finished reading through about 6-8 different threads/links, "cover to cover," about whether non-majors should send music supplements (CD's) to colleges for admission consideration. (handy links, violadad! Thanks! BUT ...)</p>

<p>All that did was confuse and worry me. There were lots of different opinions out there.</p>

<p>Anybody else like to throw your opinions my way? </p>

<p>My rising high school senior is very good -- not a prodigy -- on his string instrument. All-State level. Principal All-District and All-Region. Principal at his high & middle schools 4 of the last 5 years, as well as next year. Very competitive area/state for string musicians. 7 years of private lessons by a professional musician on the same instrument.</p>

<p>Wants to major in engineering and, if he can, minor in music. Definitely wants to play in an orchestra during college. If non-majors can't play in a certain college's orchestra, he’s not going to apply to that college.</p>

<p>And so ... he thought he'd send in a Music Supplement. He recently recorded a whole smattering of different stuff that a lot of his college choices require for music major auditions (Bach cello suites, certain scales done certain ways, certain concertos and etudes, etc), and figures he'll have the guy who did the recording make different CD's for each of the different colleges, picking and choosing from son’s recorded selections to meet each college's criteria.</p>

<p>Since he's not a music major, and therefore not focusing his search on the greatest music schools, but rather on very good engineering schools with good music programs, we've found that a lot of his colleges have not clearly defined on their websites just what they want or don’t want in the way of supplements. So NOW, we're thinking he'll probably have to contact the various music departments for all the different colleges to see what they’d recommend. This is getting more cumbersome than we imagined!</p>

<p>And then we recently read several of the “send music supplement?” threads … and lots of people seem to think it might be better not to send them at all! Oh brother.</p>

<p>So, what do YOU think? Is it worth all the trouble? Send or not send? Contact college admissions or the schools of music directly for guidance? Or not contact anybody at all and just submit the CDs to general admissions after finalizing his various online apps?</p>

<p>(FYI: He has nearly perfect-to-perfect academic stats and is not interested in HYP. This is not the "Can my son's music supplement help him over the edge in admissions?" question. It’s more like ... "What's the best course of action for a kid who loves to play, is pretty good at playing, and is driven to only apply to schools where he can play as a non-major – in regards to supplements?" type question. )</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

2

<p>From the sounds of it, you do not need to stress out too much about the music supplement. He does not need music as a “hook” for admission and is not looking to get into a music major where an audition is required. From your description, it sounds like he should be among the more accomplished non-majors, particularly if we are not talking about a violinist which does not seem likely from your mention of the Bach cello suites. Still, there may be one good reason that I can think of to send a supplement. The music director who receives it may be able to speak to the likelihood of your son being accepted into the orchestra. Otherwise, your son may have to choose a school, matriculate and audition before having a clear idea of his chances of being able to play. </p>

<p>Another thing to think about is the importance of the music minor. Many schools do not have an official music minor, but will allow non-majors to take many of the music classes that they offer subject to having available seats after the music majors have enrolled. It will probably not be too difficult to get into a first year music theory or music history class, but he might be shut out of some of the higher level classes and the interesting seminars at some schools. That could be important information to have when deciding among his acceptances. Another question is how many electives will your son have out of a busy engineering curriculum that can be used for music classes.</p>

<p>It is possible to do exactly what he wants at the right program. I was an electrical engineering major, yet still managed to participate in at least two ensembles every semester, take applied lessons most semesters and, in a few semesters, a music history or theory class. It helped a lot to go in with a fair amount of AP credit that opened up my schedule, particularly in first year. That school did not have an official music minor, but I wound up with over 30 semester hours of music credit on my transcript.</p>

<p>Regarding the contents of the supplement, you have found that most schools do not specify what should be on a recording submitted by a non-major. I think when questioned that most of them will tell you to include two or three contrasting pieces that best show off his abilities. I would ditch the scales at any school that does not specifically request them. If his objective is to get into an orchestra, it might be nice to include a standard orchestral excerpt for his instrument in addition to the solo material, particularly so if we are talking about a cellist and for certain if we are talking about a bassist. A look at the audition requirements for some of the better known music schools will give you some idea of the most often used excerpts for his instrument.</p>

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<p>Thanks, BassDad, for your shared wisdom! (You helped me quite a bit with another son in the past.)</p>

<p>You’re spot-on in your first paragraph. The whole reason my son would consider sending the supplement is actually two-fold.</p>

<p>One: what you said – so that music directors could speak to the likelihood of him playing in their orchestras, which is something he really wants/needs to know prior to making a college choice.</p>

<p>And Two: as a “hook” for major scholarships. We know that music scholarships are really hard to come by, particularly for non-majors. So, we’re not counting on any of those. But several of the schools my son is applying to offer specific HUGE scholarships – like their President’s Scholar or Academic Elite Scholar or Top Regent’s Scholar – extremely competitive scholarships that look for stellar academics, leadership, demonstrated talent and commitment, community involvement, etc. He was hoping that a demonstrated level of musical accomplishment would help him compete for big scholarships like those – AND/OR possibly get music programs/directors interested in him, especially if they need his instrument type (you’re right again: not a violinist), to the point that THEY ask the college to “get this kid.” Know what I mean? Previous son, who IS a music major, had a few experiences like that – the music schools wanted him and his particular instrument so much that THEY suggested that the school bump him up to the next scholarship category, like Provost’s Scholar, and the schools did. It helped the old pocketbook tremendously.</p>

<p>Spot-on in your second paragraph as well, BassDad. Son is looking closely at all those things. Applied lessons, for instance, are an absolute must. He’s researching all of that stuff prior to applying. And, as you said, a minor itself is not imperative – the ability to continue playing and learning IS.</p>

<p>It’s really great to hear that you, personally, were able to pull this off, BassDad. My son would love to come away from college with the same sorts of accomplishments as yours. That would make him very happy.</p>

<p>We hadn’t thought about orchestral excerpts. That’s a really good idea. We’ve got the two or three contrasting pieces. And son would LOVE to ditch the scales, lol! Thanks again for all your wisdom!</p>

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<p>SimpleLife, many of those asking the “should I send a music supplement” question have no idea of being able to assess their own talent within a broad pool of accomplishment; many lack the depth of exposure to extremely talented peers, and without professional level assessment may well be only at a moderate or average level of talent.</p>

<p>Differences as to the potential effect of the value of specific instruments, and how each program weighs and considers the supplement as an admission data point or potential scholarship carrot are overlooked or ignored. </p>

<p>Each institution has their own criteria as to how this fits in the admission equation. Most simply do not seem to grasp this.</p>

<p>I agree with BassDad, about the orchestral excerpts, an excellent idea. And if your son has a background, interest in the quartet or chamber repertoire, you may wish to include that as well. While you have been non-specific as to instrument, as an accomplished non-major cellist, it may well be a very added plus. In the off chance he is a violist, it may be worth even a bit more. </p>

<p>Without direct contact with the music department, my feeling is you are shooting blindly. Contact with the music department is your key here not only in terms of opportunities as a non-major, but as to what they might need, want, or suggest as the best way to approach this. Institutional perspectives will be beneficial, this is not a blanket one submission fits all. You may well decide to pick and choose, and evaluate if at any one school it actually will make a difference.</p>

<p>You’ve got a case where music is indeed a part of your son as “a package”. You may need to wrap it a bit differently for each submission.</p>

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<p>Having already sent one through an audition based process, you are already in a better position than many to realize the potential level of competition even as a non-major. Remember this.</p>

5

<p>Our daughter did apply as a music major, both to conservatories and colleges. For colleges, we did call to see what they wanted (conservatories were of course very clear ). </p>

<p>My daughter wanted to know whether to select out 3 minutes or so on her composition CD, to represent her best work, knowing how busy college admissions folks can be. They definitely appreciated this.</p>

<p>So she let them know which 3 minutes to listen to, and actually has no idea whether the music department heard the CD, or just admissions, or if they just looked at her resume and performance list and never even listened to it.</p>

<p>So I think the expectation that anyone is going to listen to all this music (whether contrasting pieces, orchestral or chamber pieces, or what) may be unrealistic. Make sure to highlight something that is brief, that can give them a good idea…</p>

<p>Your son’s musical accomplishments will be on the application. Beyond that, I would ask each school what is best to send, in consideration of the admissions office’s and the demands on their time. A conversation with someone in the music department would also be useful.</p>

<p>The scholarship issue is important. I know a saxophonist who surprised his parents by applying for a pharmacy program, rather than music. Nevertheless, his talent earned him a $10,000 music scholarship that was available to non-majors.</p>

<p>I would think, but I am not certain, that there would be specific application procedures for specific scholarships of this kind. There might be info on websites, but that would also be a good question for admissions, the financial aid department, or the music department (most likely the latter) so that you do not miss anything. I am not sure that a generic music supplement submitted to admissions would always make it into the pool for a specific scholarship, but it very well may: I would just make sure.</p>

<p>Sounds like your son will end up in a great place that meets his needs, especially with all of this good preparation for the process!</p>

6

<p>As violadad says, direct contact with the music department is key. In an ideal world, a CD sent to admissions would get passed along to the right people in the music department and listened to in its entirety. As compmom points out, we do not live in an ideal world and your recording may get scant attention when sent through normal channels. It is certain that they will not listen to what you do not provide, however.</p>

<p>The question then becomes how best to get the attention of the right people as a non-major. As always, timing is a key element. Do not expect the music department to have much time to listen to a non-major’s music supplement in the middle of peak audition season (assuming that the school has one). Right now through the end of September might be a good time to have your son reach out to the orchestra directors in question to discuss possibilities and see if they might be willing to listen to a CD sent directly to them.</p>

<p>The OP may also want to PM binx if she does not chime in on this thread. She has a son who attended Juilliard to study horn and a daughter who is a fairly accomplished string player and was looking to play in a good college orchestra as a non-major and perhaps grab some scholarship money. Sounds a lot like the OP’s situation, so binx may have some ideas on whom to contact, when to do it and what to send where.</p>

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<p>And thumper1 has both a son with a trumpet performance MM and a d recently graduated engineering major also an accomplished non-major oboist. Her experience is recounted in some past threads as to how they handled the non-major approach. There’s another source of insight as well.</p>

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<p>Thx for your input, violadad! I do have a thing about guarding my kids’ privacy on sites like these, so the kids are not later “identified” as SimpleLife’s son at any given college. Don’t think that’s healthy or fair to the kiddos. That’s why I didn’t really want to name the specific instrument. But it is an instrument that is often sought after.</p>

<p>I think you’re right that, because my other son is a music major and because we’ve been through the audition process together, my family has a little more awareness of some of these issues than other families that haven’t “been there” yet. I was much less knowledgeable at this point with the other son. And much less aware of any of my kids’ relative potential. I feel more confident in my own evaluation of their progress now – and more confident in my music major’s evaluation of his siblings’ progress.</p>

<p>You’re right. (Of course. You’re violadad! :wink: We learned the first time around that a college’s current need for a specific instrument weighs greatly in the process – in regards to scholarships and to admittance. </p>

<p>We’ll definitely have to add the orchestral excerpts to his recorded material. In terms of quartet or chamber repertoire, are you suggesting that my son have his whole quartet record an excerpt of their work? Or are you saying that he should play a bit of his part only? Or do you just mean that he should make a note of his experience in that area on his resume/application (which he’s already done)?</p>

<p>We have, btw, made a point to visit with the orchestra director of every single college we’ve visited so far, except for some of the huge publics, whose directors don’t seem to be as readily available and who likely have their pick of masses of music majors on any given instrument. (We’re guessing.) (But those large publics also have pretty clear instructions for non-major applicants on their websites.) Unfortunately, college visits have been going on for a year now, and we failed to think this far ahead to ask them about music supplements!</p>

<p>My son DID ask about the audition process for non-majors on his visits. Many of them have a very informal process for non-majors. They have the students come in during college orientation week or the first week of school to play for them, and then they recommend placement. Since this happens after my son makes his college choice, it’s less than ideal for his purposes. He politely mentioned that to those professors, and they typically gave him positive feedback, based on our state’s reputation for music and his self-disclosed level within our state. But they haven’t heard him play. Plus, not only do we know better than to take their “general feedback” with anything more than a grain of salt, it also does not deter my son from trying to maximize his scholarship potential by submitting a supplement. </p>

<p>A few schools require a regular audition during the same timeframe as music majors (winter/spring of senior year) for even non-majors who want to play in their orchestras. Again, that doesn’t exactly deter him from sending a supplement to admissions – especially since he’s going to apply early action to every school that has such a plan.</p>

<p>A handful suggested that my son visit again during senior year and play for them for 15 minutes, in a casual sort of format, so that they can better identify his placement and give him direct feedback. That’s a really great idea. He’s going to do just that for his top choice schools. But he can’t afford the time or money to visit all of his schools again. And the question remains – are supplements a good idea for general admissions, especially when competing for major scholarships?</p>

<p>You’re probably absolutely right, violadad. (Unfortunately.) My son is probably going to have to contact all of these professors and admission officers again to ask how best to address the music supplement issue for their individual schools. He wanted to avoid that. It adds considerably to his work and “research.” But then again, he is asking for money from these people! ;-)</p>

<p>Thanks again for your thoughtful response!</p>

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<p>Hi compmom. You make several good points. It sounds like my son is going to have to call each school, both admissions and music, to find out how or if they want a supplement. The 3-minute idea is a good one. Send the whole selection(s), but suggest which 3-minutes to listen to. Great idea!</p>

<p>My son has searched websites pretty extensively. In nearly all cases, there really isn’t a lot of information on them in regards to non-major applications, auditions, or supplements. Non-majors are, naturally, secondary to everything they’re doing there, after all. So we understand.</p>

<p>Bassdad, I think I will PM binx. She sounds like an excellent reference for us. Thanks for the lead! (I think you’re absolutely right – son should get on this right away and re-initiate contact with those music profs to see how best to handle this. He wishes it weren’t so!)</p>

<p>And violadad, thanks also for the thumper1 lead! Over the years, I have seen her posts on so many of the same threads we routinely visit. And yet, I did not realize she had one of each – a major and a non-major.</p>

<p>You guys are awesome. I really appreciate the ability to get so much information in such a short period of time. Very, very thankful!</p>

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<p>You do not need to have the entire quartet record, as so much of the repertoire has instrument specific passages that are meant to highlight and showcase the lower strings. If you happen to have a recording or two of his quartet that incorporates movements or passages and can show his talents within context, by all means include it as part of your bag of tricks. Otherwise, he can just add a few of the rep warhorse passages as excerpts, as he can with the orchestral passages. Again, let his private instructor (or chamber coach) guide him in this regard as to which rep might be best for him. And realize it may only be a benefit within certain programs, but it does illustrate a broader range of skill sets and interest.</p>

<p>You ARE into extra work here, in terms of research, contact and followup. You will as a rule see less general interest from large publics regarding non-majors and more from the LACs and smaller private universities, some of the smaller publics. And just from the typical instrument distribution, a high quality cellist or violist seriously interested in a participatory, non-major or minor orchestral and/or ensemble experience will tend to glean a bit more attention than a violinist, flutist, or pianist of similar talent level if the department is looking to fill spots. Very simply, it boils down to numbers and needs. </p>

<p>Whether the extra work is warranted is really a family collective choice, but given what you’ve outlined initially my take is it is worth pursuing if the end result better positions your son as both a candidate, and allows him to explore the best non major music opportunities for him.</p>

<p>In talking to binx and thump, my guess is that they will only reinforce the need for in depth contact within the music department even as a non-major.</p>

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<p>The answer here is contingent upon how each school weighs the supp in admissions decisions. In general, programs that focus on stats and grades typically don’t want supplemental materials. If a school suggests or encourages students to send, then they have some sort of criteria in place to evaluate and weigh them. Holistic admission approaches versus straight grads/stats admit criteria are more amenable and encouraging here. What a school needs and wants in achieving each class’s profile is another variable.</p>

<p>The scholarship awards are anybody’s guess. The criteria will be so institution specific and often are a combination of academic achievement, community service, and talents/skills a candidate brings to the table. Without being on the committee, the only way to peg this is to investigate or talk to recipients of these specific scholarships.</p>

<p>And I’m not always right. My wife and children remind me daily.</p>

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<p>And in the event you haven’t seen it, there’s this <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/909292-non-music-major-scholarships.html?highlight=scholarships[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/909292-non-music-major-scholarships.html?highlight=scholarships&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The links readdresses the “non-major” music scholarship topic over time. They don’t address the effect of music as part of a “top” institutional academic award.</p>

<p>His music talent alone may qualify him for some money even as a non-major, as compmom suggests, so it pays to investigate from this angle as well.</p>

12

<p>Wow. More really awesome feedback and links. Thanks for sending!</p>

<p>I read every one of the links (and the links to links!).</p>

<p>That reading led me to research some great LAC’s – Puget Sound, St. Olaf’s, Lewis & Clark, etc. Great looking schools with good non-major scholarships. Unfortunately, none of them offer engineering degrees (except for the 5-year-go-to-another-school-aftewards plan, which son doesn’t want to do). </p>

<p>I’ll have to ask binx if her daughter is/was at Miami U in Miami (already on my son’s tentative list), or if she was referring to Miami U of Oxford, OH (a school that was not previously on son’s radar, but does appear to have a music program AND an engineering program). </p>

<p>All good info in any case.</p>

<p>I guess we’re pretty much resigned to the fact that there’s a lot more work ahead of him (us). Must completely check out all Music Supp angles. More phone calls and emails. More visits. Etc. It will hopefully be well worth it in the end!</p>

<p>(Yeah, violadad, our spouses – and children – have an annoying way of reminding us that we’re not always right. What’s with that, anyway?)</p>

13

<p>Something else mentioned in those links you sent … a mention of even smaller scholarships for applied lessons. A scholarship like that would be much prized here. Any help counts! And I hadn’t even considered that possibility.</p>

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<p>SL, if you searched on supplements, you probably missed these:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/968687-open-orchestra-seats.html?highlight=orchestra[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/968687-open-orchestra-seats.html?highlight=orchestra&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Might be worth a read through. And binx’s d was at Miami OH, not Miami/Frost.</p>

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<p>Excellent! No time to read right this minute, but I skimmed it and its resulting links. Looks great! Will read a little later. Thanks once again, violadad!</p>

<p>So, Miami, OH, huh? Looks like a great school for my son’s wants and needs. One can learn SO much on these forums!</p>

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<p>Hi:</p>

<p>I am a rising senior who plays the clarinet who wants to major in engineering too. I am in exactly the same boat as your son. I have posted a similar question about schools I should investigate where I could play in an orchestra without majoring in music.</p>

<p>I would love to see what schools your son has on his list. I would really appreciate it.</p>

<p>I loved University of Rochester but concerned about Eastman. I am going to go look at Swarthmore, Case Western, Lafayette and looking for others to check out.</p>

<p>Ben</p>

17

<p>My D will be attending a LAC in the fall, actually in 2 weeks. Gad ! She plays clarinet, and tenor and alto sax, also suprano sax, and piano (and a bit of flute). She’s really good at the clarinet and sax (and piano, she’s also great at sight reading), it’s not just me saying it. She intended and still intends to major in college in biology and in music. She was accepted early decision and did send a music supplement. She sent in a music resume, and filled out the form that the LAC had for “arts” she also sent in a CD, which we prepared, with her playing sax, clarinet and piano (in separate pieces, obviously). The application form allowed her to highlight her music experiences. She got recommendations from an English teacher, a biology teacher, and her clarinet/sax teacher. She indicated, truthfully, in her application that she intended in college to major in music along with biology and that she intended to play clarinet in a symphony orchestra and sax in a jazz or big band orchestra. Two of her application essays related at least in part to her study of music. She has registered for classes in biology and music and her future plans still have not changed (we’ll see in December). She did not receive any correspondence from the music people at the LAC before she was accepted (although admittedly she did not communicate directly with them), and has received some general e-mails over this last summer from the orchestra leaders telling her when auditions would take place in September. Her LAC is certainly not a conservatory, but a great LAC with, shall I say, an intimate music department (like in Cheers, everyone in the department will know her name). At one time she was planning to consider ConCervatories, thus my pen name here, but after learning at a summer music camp more about the profession and its difficulties, she decided against applying to them. So, if one is truthfully planning to continue with music in college, as a major, as a minor, or only as an extracurricular, one should include as musch music stuff in one’s college application that one can. If one’s music skills are good, it will likely help get you into the college of your choice. One LAC on her list for a time was Skidmore which has a music scholarship competition. We liked Lawrence U with its con and LAC, but ultimately it was too far away from her aged Ps. So now, maybe her aged Ps can see her perform in some concerts on a Firday or Saturday nite!</p>

18

<p>Thanks everybody, for sharing.</p>

<p>Ben, I don’t know if the schools on my son’s list will interest you much, because we’re from a different part of the country than you, and he’s focusing his search in the south-central part of the US, for the most part. The engineering part of the equation is more important to him than the music part, and he also insists on schools that have a wide range of interesting liberal arts courses and good honors programs.</p>

<p>He has not at all finalized his list, but he’s visited a whole bunch of schools! Some of the schools that he’s strongly considering, in alphabetical order, include Alabama (Tuscaloosa) – amazing scholarships for great scores & NMF; Baylor, SMU, Texas Tech, U of Miami, USC, UT Austin, and Vanderbilt. Harvey Mudd is on the visit list – would like to take a closer look at the feasibility of playing music there.</p>

<p>Thanks, ConCerndDad, for the details of your daughter’s application process. That’s all very interesting. It sounds like she did very well for herself!</p>

19

<p>^^Oh, Ben …
I forgot to name 2 other schools that intrigue him and are so far on his list. Rice and WashU.</p>

<p>I read through all the links that violadad referred to on this thread. Rice and WashU are mentioned in a few of them. After visiting both schools with two different kids, I will agree with several comments others made in the links.</p>

<p>Rice has an excellent music program. The top orchestra there is absolutely incredible. Totally top notch. But there are other options for non-majors that are also very good and conducted by excellent TA’s. Extremely nice music facilities at Rice, and the engineering programs (all academics, really) are also some of the best.</p>

<p>WashU is a perfect fit for my son in so many ways – they’re known for being very fluid about what the students study. Liberal arts here, engineering there. Kids there can really do it all. If it’s interesting to them, they can study it. It’s easy for the kids to move in and out of different “schools” and programs. So many of the academic programs are extraordinary. Great study abroad opportunities. It’s just a great, kind of innovative, student-focused, excellent school. And it’s gorgeous to boot.</p>

<p>However, as noted on the other links, the orchestra program is NOT top notch. We visited with them in two different years (2 different kids), and THEY even tout their program as being “flexible,” kind of “student-led,” and not perfectionist. It’s not exactly what my son was looking for, but he also finds that level of performance intriguing when paired with the massive number of choices for academic study. He wonders if he might have more fun and get more out of the academic side of his experience in an orchestra that is not very demanding. Then again, he might just get frustrated. We were told by the faculty and some students that they very much enjoy their orchestra program. Plus, there are easy opportunities there, we were told, to play in the St. Louis orchestra – can’t recall the specific name.</p>

<p>Not only that, but my son has heard in a few places/from a few people, that WashU’s engineering programs are not known to be that strong. That tidbit requires a little more investigation. My son is not worried about all the puffed up talk that you MUST graduate from a TOP engineering school to be successful in career or grad school selections. He thinks that wherever he goes, he’ll do well – and when he does well, he’ll find a good job or grad school at the end. So maybe WashU is “good enough” in terms of engineering. Or maybe it’s “great,” and the people who said otherwise just don’t know it.</p>

<p>If it weren’t for the fact that BOTH orchestra AND engineering are not among WashU’s strongest programs, it would probably be at the very top of his list. He likes that school very, very much, in terms of “fit” and other things.</p>

<p>Good luck, Ben. If you come up with other schools that appeal to you, we’d be interested to hear about them!</p>

20

<p>Hi:</p>

<p>Thanks for the advice. For schools with engineering (and music that I am still investigating) I have:</p>

<p>Rice
Lafayette
Case Western
Swarthmore
Bucknell
University of Rochester
Suny Bing
MIT</p>

<p>If, after I take this engineering class at Smith College this fall, I am not as interested in just engineering or will consider a 3/2 or 4/1 I am looking at schools with music and strong physics including:</p>

<p>Lawrence U.
Williams College (my dad is sad that it is not at the top of my list. He went there.)
St. Olaf
College of Wooster</p>

<p>I am trying to find a smaller school. Ideally it wouldn’t be too far from home (Rice seems FAR from western mass) because I have a 5-year-old sister who has already said I can’t go to college!</p>

<p>Thanks for sharing the list. My mother had me check out Harvey Mudd which looks great but it is very far…</p>

<p>Ben</p>