Anti-Homosexuality is NOT Christian

College Confidential Community
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<p>Howard Zinn inspires me:</p>

<p>"There was a hard core of people in his country who believed in the institution of slavery. Between the 1830s, when a tiny group of Abolitionists began their agitation, and the 1850s, when disobedience of the fugitive slave acts reached their height, the Northern public, at first ready to do violence to the agitators, now embraced their cause. What happened in those years? The reality of slavery, its cruelty, as well as the heroism of its resisters, was made evident to Americans through the speeches and writings of the Abolitionists, the testimony of escaped slaves, the presence of magnificent black witnesses like Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman."</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Christianity teaches that homosexual acts are sinful, not homosexuality itself. If you experience homosexual desires, aside from prayer, there is little you can do about it. But you can choose not to act on them.</p>

<p>No Christian can say, without sinning themselves, that Jesus does not love gays. Jesus loves everyone. Does Jesus condone everything? No. But that does not mean that Jesus does not love everyone. Jesus does not condone the fact that I fight with my family, but I am sure that He still loves me. </p>

<p>The question, then, is not whether Jesus loves us, but is this: Do we love Jesus enough to follow His teaching?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm really not seeing the offensive part in this post that apparently started this six page hissy fit. Would somebody care to enlighten me as to why the beliefs expressed in this post (which seem pretty logical and reasonable to me) are so ridiculous?</p>

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<p>As not-a-Christian (but a proud Jew), I have no dog in this fight. But I still think it's ridiculous for people to keep proclaiming "what Christians believe" when Christians believe all sorts of things. Some Christian ministers do same sex marriages. Go to Canada or Massachusetts or England or other places with equal marriage rights and you'll find them. Episcopals have gay bishops. The United Church of Christ does not say that gay people should not act on their God-given feelings of attraction and affection.</p>

<p>Not all Christians are the same. Not all people who are religious think the religious texts are the literal word of God. All religious scholars know the Bible has been interpreted and quoted to support all sorts of horrible things. The interpretations, as any one who has studied religion knows, has varied over time.</p>

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<p>oops -- last sentence should be edited: "Common interpretations of the Bible, as anyone who has studied religion knows, have varied over time."</p>

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<p>Katho-</p>

<p>Sure, he says that, but he still thinks gays are going to Hell.</p>

<p>I never meant to start a "hissy" fit and I am miffed that you would assume that, I was merely stating throughout that homosexuals can have a part in Christianity that does not include them going to Hell. </p>

<p>Momfrommie- say what you want. Those are EXCEPTIONS to the mainstream Christian view. Try visiting national Evangelical groups and their websites, you will find that, although people differ, there is an established view that Christians are expected to take and those who don't are EXCEPTIONS, often not accepted by many congregations and are forced to move. </p>

<p>Besides, I never meant to prove anybody wrong or attack Christians...my thread was just me voicing my belief that there is a BETTER way (not necessarily more right) Please do not misconstrue what I am saying...I apologize if I am not the best at communicating my views. Again, I am NOT attacking Christians or trying to prove anybody wrong, all I am doing is voicing my opinion that there is a BETTER way than the mainstream, most accepted view many Christians have of homosexuals. Sure, every Christian is different, but the MAJORITY believe homosexuality is WRONG, if the recent gay marriage referendum does not prove that...I don't know what does.</p>

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<p>What ****, pray tell, do you mean?</p>

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<p>In Deutoronomy, male homosexuality (women are not in the verse and it is grammatically male only) is a sin on par with eating shellfish."</p>

<p>“if you are a christian, you're supposed to belive all the bible says, your life becomes based on the bible”</p>

<p>I contend that very few (if any) Christians follow EVERYTHING in the bible. Why? Because the bible is FULL of contradictions. When you ask them about that, they often say “Well you have to read it in its proper context.” Trouble is, the bible is subject to interpretation. Hence, so many denominations all supposedly based on the bible yet having different beliefs.</p>

<p>Consider this (I posted this on another thread but I think it's appropriate here):</p>

<hr>

<p>Dear President Bush,</p>

<p>Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I
have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would propose
and support a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage. As you
said, "in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man a woman." I
try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone
tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind
them that Leviticus
18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.</p>

<p>I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements
of God's Laws and how to follow them.</p>

<ol>
<li>Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.</li>
</ol>

<p>A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not
Canadians.</p>

<p>Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair
price for her?</p></li>
<li><p>I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev15: 19-24.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>The problem is how do tell? I have tried asking, but most women take
offense.</p>

<ol>
<li>When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9.</li>
</ol>

<p>The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to
them.
Should I smite them?</p>

<ol>
<li>I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly states he should be put to death.</li>
</ol>

<p>Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to
do it?</p>

<ol>
<li>A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality.
I don't agree. Can you settle this?</li>
</ol>

<p>Are there 'degrees' of abomination?</p>

<ol>
<li>Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses.</li>
</ol>

<p>Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by
Lev.19:27. How should they die?</p></li>
<li><p>I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?</p></li>
<li><p>My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of
two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend).</p></li>
</ol>

<p>He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot.</p>

<p>Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the
whole town together to stone them? Lev. 24:10-16.</p>

<p>Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we
do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)</p>

<p>I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy
considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
unchanging.</p>

<hr>

<p>Leviticus -</p>

<p>20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.</p>

<p>(Kill homosexuals)</p>

<ul>
<li>Deuteronomy -</li>
</ul>

<p>6:15 (For the Lord thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the Lord thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.</p>

<p>(God will kill you if you worship another God)</p>

<p>7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: </p>

<p>(God instructs the Israelites to kill inhabitants of the land that
they conquer)</p>

<p>7:3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. </p>

<p>(God forbids marriage between different "tribes")</p>

<p>7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.</p>

<p>(God will kill those who hate him)</p>

<p>13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.</p>

<p>(Kill everyone you know that worships another God)</p>

<p>17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. (17:2-7) </p>

<p>(Kill all those who have different relgious beliefs)</p>

<ul>
<li>Psalms -</li>
</ul>

<p>9:3 When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence. (9:3-6)</p>

<p>(God will kill your enemies, if you pray hard enough) </p>

<p>18:34 He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.</p>

<p>("Peaceful" God teaches us how to kill our enemies)</p>

<p>Shall I continue? I only got to Psalms. There is more...</p>

<hr>

<p>Personally, I think much the old testament must have come from some evil alien who was so powerful that the poor primitives THOUGHT he was God.</p>

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<p>"every non-religious person I've met who believe whatever they read in books by Chomsky or Michael Moore"</p>

<p>Your logic is flawed. Just the fact that they even read Chomsky or Moore in the first place PROVES they are open-minded. Many of the Christian people I know REFUSE to even read ANYTHING that their church says to avoid. They just blindly follow without checking it out themselves.</p>

<hr>

<p>“People who hate all religion, not distinguishing different religions and their complex traditions, and do so because they claim that religious people are close-minded, are often quite close-minded themselves.”</p>

<p>I agree that we shouldn’t lump all religious people in together. You are right that different traditions have different beliefs. However, what we’re discussing is a quality that MANY of them have in common: the attitude that their way is the ONLY way and people should never consider the possibility that a different point of view might have some value. You don’t seem to understand what ‘closed-minded’ means. It means being unwilling to consider to opposing points of view, because your mind is already made up. </p>

<hr>

<p>"Here's a little lesson for you & Fides to demonstate why I think Christians have a responsibility to support tolerance and homosexuality:</p>

<p>Christians used to use the Bible to validate slavery. They used the story of Abraham and Ham, and there is a verse about how all Ham's brothers should be enslaved. Thus, many American Christians used this to argue for slavery. </p>

<p>Now, if abolitionists, such as Harriet Tubman, had never questioned this, what kind of world do you think we would still live in?"</p>

<p>I agree completely. Well said. What amazes me is that many of the modern Christians do not make the connection that their way of thinking is the same way of thinking that contributed to slavery, witch hunts, Islamist terrorists, blowing up abortion clinics...etc. It's all the same TYPE of thinking but to varying degrees.</p>

<hr>

<p>"...our thinking goes a bit like this: It's true because the Bible says so....why does the Bible say so? Because it's true...Why is it true? Because the Bible says so...PURELY CIRCULAR THINKING! GEEZ WE'RE GOIN' BACK TO THE MIDDLE AGES HERE!!"</p>

<p>To validate something because it says so in the bible only works for people who believe in the bible.</p>

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<p>Actually, there are some Taoist and Tantric teachings that advise against not so much gay sex, but a particular activity involving a particular entry point, that is more common amongst gays but is practiced by many heteros too. These teachings go back to ancient times. They don't say the person is evil or going to 'hell' though - but they do simply advise against certain sexual activities involving a different point of entry other than, ahem, the usual two. (see the book by Nik Douglas and Penny Slinger for a full explanation.)</p>

<p>These tecahings are very esoteric. They get into stuff like energy exchanges during the sexual act. Supposedly there is a circuit of energy, that is connected and exchanged during the act. There are energy centers in the body, called chakras, and energy pathways called meridians. These energies merge during sex, and there is a polarity involved. Quite simply, the energy is different with a male/female energy than with a male/male or female/female energy exchange.</p>

<p>It is important to note that these teachings advise against using a particular orifice even with male/female activity, because that orifice is called the 'gate of death' (for obvious reasons) while the other, more common orifice is called the 'gate of life' because that is where new life springs from (birth of a child).</p>

<p>A more modern extension of this is the physiological difference between the type of tissue found in the more 'common' orifice versus the other orifice. The former is very elastic and designed to withstand a lot of, er, pounding and stretching. The latter has very fine tissue with no elastic properties. I have read hypotheses that this is an explanation for the propensity of AIDS among gays - the tissue in that part of the body can easily rupture from the activity it was not designed for, and the waste matter found therein can spill out into the bloodstream, thus causing infections and reduced immune system activity due to the assault of toxic material that was on its way out of the body. </p>

<p>(I'm trying not to get too graphic here.)</p>

<p>Disclaimer: EVEN IF all the abovementioned are true, they just represent some added risk factors with certain varieties of sexual activities. I offer this info as an EXAMPLE of some possible LOGICAL explanations.</p>

<p>But, the Christians who condemn homosexuality offer no logical explanations. They just say it's 'wrong' and 'a sin.'</p>

<p>I contend: IF some of the above info is shown to be true, based on science, then people (gays and heteros) can make an informed decision as to whether they want to engage in those particular activities. But many heteros engage in those activities too. IT'S NOT ABOUT GAYS. If the above is true, it's about certain bodily designs being perhaps more vulnerable to certain activities.</p>

<p>Re: the Taoist teachings: These are ancient teachings attributed to 'inspired' masters as well. But they did not make a religion out of it and they did not condemn people who went against the teachings. </p>

<p>Also: it is self-righteous to tell gays that they just can't have sex. Ha! Why are they supposed to deny themselves sex? I'd like to see the pastors go without sex for the rest of their lives!</p>

<p>(Yes I know Catholic priests are advised to do that. But most people, including many Christian pastors, would not be able to pull it off.)</p>

<p>NOTE: The above does not necessarily represent my own opinions. I offer it only for informational purposes.</p>

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<p>"Okay. Im fine with that. But don't you believe it becomes a problem when you try to impose those views on others?"</p>

<p>Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth?</p>

<p>Who said that I think homosexuals are going to Hell? I certainly didn't. Just because I believe that homosexual acts are sinful does not mean that I think homosexuals are going to Hell, any more than I think straight people who engage in sinful sexual behavior are going to Hell (both are very close to equal in my book). Personally, I like to think that God is a little more merciful than that. </p>

<p>I had an openly gay uncle who jumped from a building to his death when he began to experience the first symptoms of AIDS (he had lived with HIV for a few years prior). I KNOW that man is in Heaven, because despite his sinful sexual lifestyle -- and suicide -- he was an enormously good and loving person. I believe that God forgave him.</p>

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<p>"I had an openly gay uncle who jumped from a building to his death when he began to experience the first symptoms of AIDS (he had lived with HIV for a few years prior). I KNOW that man is in Heaven, because despite his sinful sexual lifestyle -- and suicide -- he was an enormously good and loving person. I believe that God forgave him."</p>

<p>I'm very glad to hear that!</p>

<p>In defense of Fides, while I don't agree with much of what he says, he seems to have a much more reasonable approach than many of the evangelical Christians I've met. (I got into this issue on another thread and it was an ordeal.)</p>

<p>I personally don't have any problem with someone like Fides being strong in his faith. At least he is willing to back up his convictions. Sure, his arguments are based on the bible and the Catholic church, because that is where he is coming from.</p>

<p>In all fairness, my observation is that it's really mostly the born-again evangelicals who are quick to judge who is going to 'hell' and who isn't. At least Fides has some room in his faith for the possibility that God is merciful.</p>

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<p>Ya, really, that's nice to hear. I hope I will be alive to see more believers develop a toerance for the entire gay community -not because they feel bad for them, but because they are human beings deserving of God's love just like anyone else. I'll keep fighting for that anyway.</p>

<p>It is unfortunate that I know more intolerant Christians than I do intolerant atheists.</p>

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<p>"not because they feel bad for them, but because they are human beings deserving of God's love just like anyone else. I'll keep fighting for that anyway."</p>

<p>Exactly! One of my son's friends is a lesbian who wants to have a sex change operation so she can have a relationship with someone she met who is currently in a male body also seeking a sex change operation.</p>

<p>Say, what? </p>

<p>I don't understand it at all. It seems to me, since their plumbing is currently compatible, and they love each other, why not just leave it alone?</p>

<p>But, it doesn't matter whether I understand it or not. It's THEIR BUSINESS and NO ONE ELSE'S. No one has the right to tell them they can't do whatever they want to find their own fulfillment (provided it doesn't hurt anyone else, of course, which is why rape and pedophilia will always be wrong).</p>

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<p>Yeah...I don't really get that either...but to each their own.</p>

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<p>"In defense of Fides, while I don't agree with much of what he says, he seems to have a much more reasonable approach than many of the evangelical Christians I've met. (I got into this issue on another thread and it was an ordeal.)...</p>

<p>"In all fairness, my observation is that it's really mostly the born-again evangelicals who are quick to judge who is going to 'hell' and who isn't. At least Fides has some room in his faith for the possibility that God is merciful."</p>

<p>It's because I'm a Catholic -- it is what the Catholic faith has taught me to be. </p>

<p>It always bewilders me when Catholics get lumped in with "born-again" and fundamentalist evangelical Protestants. We aren't the same. Yes, we are all technically of the same religion, but we are EXTREMELY different types of Christians. Truth be told, I would much rather discuss religion with Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, etc., than with a born-again Protestant. I often feel that I have more in common with people of other faiths than I do with them, in terms of how I live out my Christianity. Born-agains and evangelicals usually just make me nervous, like I always have to be on the defensive. I usually try to avoid them whenever possible.</p>

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<p>"It's because I'm a Catholic -- it is what the Catholic faith has taught me to be."</p>

<p>Still, not all Catholics are as open-minded or as reasonable as you. I already shared with you the way I was raised, by 'fire-and-brimstone' Catholics who thought they were living their lives in accordance with Catholic teachings. So I would contend that, while your Catholic faith is a PART of who you are, it is not the full explanation. More credit should go to you as a person for choosing to focus on the good that your faith has to offer, rather than finding things in it that can be used to justify bad.</p>

<p>"It always bewilders me when Catholics get lumped in with "born-again" and fundamentalist evangelical Protestants. We aren't the same. ...Born-agains and evangelicals usually just make me nervous, like I always have to be on the defensive. ...."</p>

<p>Yeah, that's a shame. Unfortunately, I know what you mean. Many of them think Catholics aren't really Christians. They think that about Mormons too. And I don't even want to say what they think of Buddhists and Hindus.</p>

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<p>Having said all that, I still completely agree with OP that anti-homosexuality is NOT Christian. EVEN IF they could offer an physiological explanation - like, for example, gay sex was proven to be unhealthy, or that there's a genetic predisposition, indicating it is more like an illness, or something like that - EVEN IF those things were proven, that STILL would not put homosexuality in the category of 'evil.' PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT SAYING IT IS AN ILLNESS! I am saying EVEN IF it were proven to be an illness, people with physical illnesses are not considered 'evil' or 'condemned'!</p>

<p>Bottom line is, that if Christians purport to follow the teachings of Jesus, then they should focus on love, understanding, compassion, and peace. How much clearer could it be? Jesus actively sought out the social outcasts of his day, much to the dismay of the uptight religious leaders of the time. He made it very clear that we are to identify with HIM. Yet, so many of the religious leaders today are just like the ones in Jesus' time that he made a point to speak out against. He spoke out against judging and self-righteousness, and in favor of tolerance and acceptance and LOVE. If Christians would just focus on LOVE then they wouldn't need to concern themselves with what other people do in their bedrooms.</p>

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<p>Bad joke, G-U-Not.</p>

<p>You are showing your prejudice, your cruelty, and your ignorance.</p>

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<p>G-U-NOT just doesn't know what to do about those weird feelings he gets in the boys locker room.</p>

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<p>Ha! So Fides has a sense of humor! Yet another distinguishing characteristic from my Catholic parents! <wink></wink></p>