<p>You can't legislate peoples thoughts. That's one of the reasons we are in this mess to begin with. When you tell a 5 year old he can't do something what is the first thing he does? The thing you just told him he couldn't do. People get bitter about being told they can't think and have their opinions. It just makes them hold on to them that much longer and grasp them even tighter. It seems to be ok for people to have intolerant opinions so long as the subject matter is politically correct. These opinions will come back to bite these people at some point... I'm not suggesting you are wrong in your disgust over their words but you want to condemn an entire institution over a relatively small number of people. Pick your school. Google that school and racism. You won't like the results.</p>
<p>departed,
See the post I put up just prior to yours. I'm not saying for an instant that it is acceptable. I think that if these kids cause harm or threaten anyone they should be dealt with. I don't think they should be kicked out of school or disciplined because they have a disgusting opinion. If mirimom has concerns she should certainly address them with the administration. If I came across saying she should do nothing I apologize. I was trying to point out that it isn't limited to just this campus.</p>
<p>
[quote]
but compared to other top schools it is more noticeable at Vandy.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You are a college freshman. How on earth can you claim to "know" that? </p>
<p>I encountered a lot of racism, not to mention regional and class bias, when I lived in the northern midwest and in New England. It is naive to think Vanderbilt is special in that regard!</p>
<p>It is "more noticeable at Vandy" to you because that is where you are a student, and where you--very unfortunately--encounter it. </p>
<p>To my knowledge, there is not a problem with URMs transferring out of Vanderbilt at a higher rate than other students after freshman or sophomore year. Do you have actual data to the contrary? In the absence of such, it seems to me that while there is no doubt a tiny fraction of the school's student body with muck for brains, they do not define the culture of the school. I think you are correct that the vestige remains, and that the school is changing, but I think we disagree that the change is a slow process. I also disagree that the best way to accelerate that change is to dissuade desirable students from attending.</p>
<p>midmo-- you are indefatigable in your defense of Vandy, and I admire you for that. In fact, I am sure that if I ever met you, I would like you a lot. I would be willing to bet that most of us parents who spend time on this site have also spent a fair amount on university campuses, and we are all familiar with the good and the bad and how adolescents can be. I am well aware that there are places in this great land where racist, anti-semitic, misogynistic, xenophobic views are held, defended, passed on to the next generation, and respected. But you won't be able to convince me that this is true at every elite university in the U.S. Thank God, there are places where those kinds of views are just about universally repudiated. I'd hoped Vandy would be one -- and now I just have to hope that someday soon it will become one.</p>
<p>If you really beleive that there is a university, elite or not, where there is not some element of this then you aren't being realistic. That is like suggesting that there is a Fortune 500 company out there where no one that works there is a racist or anti-semite or whatever. You are condusing thoughts with actions. And for the record I would make these same arguments at any school. Not just Vandy. I would imagine midmo would also.</p>
<p>I am not tying to be Pollyanna about Vanderbilt. For the record, at no point did I encourage my son to consider Vanderbilt, nor did I even know he had applied until after it was over. (Neither I nor H played a significant role in his application process.) The reason? Because my impression of the campus was that it was too segregated, too fraternity-based, too regional, too upper class. When son was offered a generous award, we made some trips to look things over because it seemed appropriate to do so, given the nature of the offer. To the surprise of us all, we found the stereotypes I had grown up with to be way out of date, and unfair to the type of campus Vanderbilt has become. The reason I am "indefatigable" in my defense of the current Vanderbilt is because I know that many people continue to overlook the school because they, too, have not seen what it is now.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I am well aware that there are places in this great land where racist, anti-semitic, misogynistic, xenophobic views are held, defended, passed on to the next generation, and respected. But you won't be able to convince me that this is true at every elite university in the U.S. Thank God, there are places where those kinds of views are just about universally repudiated. I'd hoped Vandy would be one -- and now I just have to hope that someday soon it will become one.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>mirimom, those views are universally repudiated by the administration, faculty and professional staff at Vanderbilt, as well as by the vast majority of the students. If I didn't believe that, I would make my son leave, although that would not be necessary, because my son would never have enrolled if he believed the picture presented by one or two students on this forum (and voiced by nameless creature(s) on anonymous dirt-filled boards). </p>
<p>I hardly think VU is perfect for everyone, or even for anyone. But I repeat that it is naive to think these issues are past history on any campus anywhere. Is there progress to be made at VU? Absolutely, that is what the Commons residential system is all about, and that is one of the motivators of the extensive service opportunities that take VU students into Nashville schools and Nashville students onto the VU campus. </p>
<p>I don't think the efforts being made at VU are token gestures. </p>
<p>It has always been my advice that every student (and parent) needs to look at the big picture when deciding where to attend school. Frankly, a disgruntled student or two on these boards, a few drunken creeps on other boards and an article or two in a student newspaper (only one of them) that few students take seriously does not constitute the "big picture".</p>
<p>It would be different if your daughter was telling you these things--but she says she loves the school, isn't that correct?</p>
<p>the comments on juicycampus are far worse at vanderbilt than other schools. other schools all have typical gossip threads about who is the biggest slut or who had sex with who, but very few others had so many racist/homophobic threads as Vanderbilt. for example, on UCLA's threads, people asked which dealer sold the best bud or commented that Bynum from the Lakers was at a frat party...not outting homosexuals or outlining why, according to these posters, african americans are inferior as people...the vandy threads are pretty scary</p>
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the vandy threads are pretty scary
[/quote]
And for all we know, written by people from rival colleges or people who didn't get in.</p>
<p>It's an anonymous forum, which means the threads could be written by anybody, and for that matter, they could all be written by the same person.</p>
<p>Is JuicyCampus really being taken as a reputable source in this matter? Because if you want a reputable source, I recommend you buy a real college guide. You know, the ones they sell in stores, the ones written by a group of people that can be held accountable. The Insider's Guide to the Colleges is a great example.</p>
<p>2 articles?
COLUMN:</a> Segregation still visible at Vanderbilt | InsideVandy
If it wasn't finals week I'd gladly go through the newspapers I have saved and try to link them here. (And all that saved after one year...)</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's a term about a phenomenon that we as undergraduate students think we never have to live through or experience, a phenomenon we think was crusaded against and obliterated in the 1950s and ’60s. Yet it still exists, and in no place is it more visible than on the campus of Vanderbilt University.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I am not surprised your views of Vanderbilt changed with one visit. The school does sell itself very well but why do you think this issue concerns a "few" disgruntled students?
I don't understand how you can apply your general views on something that you have obviously have no idea about. The school is headed in the right direction but if you think for one second that everything is fine and dandy here you shouldn't have spoken in the first place.</p>
<p>I am on student government at Vanderbilt and in regard to juicycampus, it isn't random kids coming on from different schools. It is a campus issue. There are direct attacks towards minorities on the site and specific names are mentioned constantly.</p>
<p>I think where some of the racism may also come from is the fact that Vandy is trying to promote diversity, and to do so, they have to attract minorities. A lot of minorities wouldn't really consider Vanderbilt, so Vandy has to draw them in with lucrative scholarship offers, etc. to get them here. I think once we have a more diverse class, students will be more initially attracted to the school and admissions won't have to "bribe" them. To be honest, if a white prospy and an URM both had high and similar stats, the URM would get the better offer. Not to say that they don't deserve it, because they absolutely do, but I think a byproduct of increasing diversity is some reverse discrimination, which may be leading to some increases in racism from the white student population.</p>
<p>The posts on Vandy boards are markedly different from posts on other boards. If I were to claim that racial segregation were an issue at a different school, nobody would be offended, no heated arguments would ensue, whereas here on the vandy board, such biting words are used in response. It just seems race is a very touchy issue here, and Vandy's reputation is stubbornly defended at the expense of fruitful discussion.
departed, thank you for the articles. the fact that these articles exist and the fact that this issue is commonly discussed does suggest at least something.
Blacks have made some headway perhaps because there is a significant population of blacks in the south.
I also agree that race is not the only issue. Vandy seems to fit a certain type of student. What if you don't like partying, but would rather watch foreign independent films and join the anime club? It just seems there is one single very predominate way of life at Vandy.
The admissions department emphasizes the change that Vandy is going through, and the dramatic increase in diversity that is expected in the future. Why would they emphasize this if things were wonderful already?
I'm not claiming anything; I'm not qualified to do anything of the sort. But from talking to people who are at Vandy, from reading these forum, from reading various articles, from looking at statistics, I have an impression of Vandy that is very similar to mirimom's. I highly respect Vandy academics, and I absolutely adore the beautiful campus, and, trust me, I want to like Vandy, since I've been given very compelling scholarshipp money to go there. But I do have my qualms.</p>
<p>OK departed, my last word here. No decisions were made on the basis of a single visit; two long visits including talks with students, professors, administrators, sitting in on classes and more before acceptance. Since son enrolled, I have been on campus numerous times, H even more because he has regular visits for business reasons. But all that is irrelevant because I am not denying that problems exist. My statements regarding Vanderbilt on this thread and others have been based on my observations as a casual visitor and my son's experience--and I have never said otherwise. My statements about how VU compares with other campuses is based on extensive past and ongoing experience with other colleges and universities. </p>
<p>Way up thread I stated that I was happy to be corrected if my impressions were overly optimistic; you have told me they are, and as a result I will be paying closer attention and asking more pointed questions of various people I know on campus. Thanks for the alternative viewpoint. However, I most certainly never claimed everything is "fine and dandy"--at Vanderbilt or anywhere else. </p>
<p>It is good to read that you are involved with campus governance. That is great.</p>
<p>As for Juicy Campus, I had never heard of it before yesterday, and I wish I were still unaware of its existence. After looking over the titles of threads of various top private institutions, I have to conclude that administrators at many top schools--not just VU--should be concerned about the trash collecting there. In fact, it has led me to reconsider having anything to do with any anonymous forums, including this one. </p>
<p>Good luck on your finals. Sorry to distract you from studying with this subject--an important one.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Vandy seems to fit a certain type of student.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I am definitely speaking from first-hand knowledge here: there are kids at Vanderbilt that do not fit the standard idea you have in mind and are very happy, very active, and very successful at Vanderbilt. Since the one I have in mind also has a lot of friends and is active in several clubs and service projects with like-minded students, I conclude that there is more diversity of this type than you think.</p>
<p>Good luck with your decision.</p>
<p>"To be honest, if a white prospy and an URM both had high and similar stats, the URM would get the better offer. Not to say that they don't deserve it, because they absolutely do"</p>
<p>...No, they don't. Affirmative Action is a little example of something called racism. It is because of these ridiculous policies that people go to opposite extreme.</p>
<p>There is nothing stubborn about defending the school. There have been statements made that were inflammatory and inaccurate. They are taking the postings of a few individuals, extrapolating and painting an entire university as racist because of them. You can't make a judgment call about 6,000 undergrad students or an entire administration off of the postings on this or any other board. Who is to say the same handful of people putting these idiotic posts on the boards (here and juicy).</p>
<p>I visited Vandy back in 2000, and was given a very generous financial aid package, i think partly because they were trying to attract more Asian American students from the east coast. I'm not sure how much has changed, but I didn't feel very welcomed on the campus during my tour. I don't know what reason specifically, but the entire time I was there I just felt like I was different, and these people didn't want to or cared to meet me. On my very next trip, I visited Carnegie Mellon(25% Asian), Cornell(15%), and Michigan(13%), I got an entirely different sort of vibe. I'm not the type of student who likes to hangout with other Asians, but I needed to have an environment where I'm not singled out because I'm Asian. If I'm walking to a frat party at night, I won't be left out because I'm Asian, people won't be looking at me funny because some guy shot a bunch of innocent people at Virginia Tech and happens to be Korean. </p>
<p>Maybe I didn't get to meet all the students at Vandy, but that was the vibe I got when I visited Vanderbilt, and I think many Asian Americans felt that way.</p>
<p>I can't argue something that happened 8 years ago. I would hope if you were in the same circumstance now you would go and feel differently.</p>
<p>I bet they did in 2000. I have a relative that was a senior in 2000 and the school remained very SEC-like. Gee started recruiting more minorities and each year since Vandy has offered a ton big scholarships to them and each year less and less have felt that "feeling of being different" would be prominent enough to prevent them from having a good experience. At some point they're going to have to stop the racist policy of Affirmative Action because more minorities will be applying than legacies (speaking of which, I wish they would re-instate legacy as a criteria of admissions).</p>
<p>Give me a break; its pathetic how you progressive, elitist liberals overreact to this stuff. Racism, sexism, homophobia exists. It's everywhere. Who cares? Yea, some idiots attacked a homosexual couple at Quizno's on campus, and for it I'm going to have to suffer more of Vanderbilt's administration shoving diversity down my throat, but that crap happens everywhere. Sure there are major racial boundaries on campus, but most of that is due to self-segregation. There are greater cultural problems within minority communities that perpetuate this barrier and more affirmative action and minority recruiting will do nothing to change that. A great example is Jews, who are represented in every fraternity and I can assure you very little real anti-Semitism exists on the campus. Sure kids make Jew jokes, same way they make racist jokes, but they are generally accepted on campus. Nonetheless, many join AEPI the almost completely Jewish fraternity, or other frats with lots of Jews. </p>
<p>Is it sad that some frats won't take a black kid? Yea, but they also cut kids for superficial reasons, and its totally their prerogative to do so. I can also assure you that the majority of frats would take a minority. I can also assure you that the people on Juicy Campus aren't nearly as racist as they act on anonymous posts, and if they are, then I feel sorry for their pathetic insecurities.</p>
<p>But I keep seeing moms come on here and express how disgusting they think the school is and how they don't want their daughters coming here need to get a grip on reality. I respect that you are looking out for your daughter's well-being, but being overprotective is only going to make them like you, shocked when they encounter the real world. As we have seen with prohibition, gun control, and the war on drugs, trying to completely suffocate bigotry is useless and only a nuisance to those of us who have done nothing wrong. Watch some South Park or Family Guy and get over it.</p>
<p>Many of you put way too much value into anonymous message boards. There used to be a troll on Vanderbilt's CollegeConfidential site with the moniker "thesearch". The person obviously didn't attend Vanderbilt but would constantly bash the school (and would make new monikers to 'agree' with his/her posts -- I bet if CC traced his/her IP address it would all be the same person). Don't get me wrong -- there are some very valuable posters on this site but be wary of posters with small post counts especially when they make abstract, non-concrete statements.</p>
<p>Also, Vanderbilt's JuicyCampus is alot more mild than other campuses. Its unfair to criticize Vanderbilt, when other schools (Yale, Duke, Emory, etc.) have much more offensive posts. Regardless, I put absolutely no stock in JuicyCampus because ANYONE could have written the posts.</p>
<p>Here's what I put stock in --- Every Jewish student I know at Vanderbilt LOVES the school. If Vanderbilt were really this evil place, you wouldn't see Jewish enrollment quadruple in only a few short years. I'm not Jewish but one of my closest friends is -- and her sister is coming to Vandy in 2012. I doubt Jewish students would be recommending the school to friends and family if they didn't enjoy their undergraduate experience.</p>