<p>As usual, I am particularly interested in strings (violin), and how the program works from a "boots on the ground" standpoint. The website makes it seem quite doable, and I wonder also how it would work for a double major.</p>
<p>Anyone been through the program or know someone who has? It does look a little different from, say, the Harvard/NEC program. Or the Yale BA/MM prog...</p>
<p>Insights most welcome.</p>
<p>Listen Missy, since it is mid-November now (how did that happen?!) I am wondering if your daughter is applying to conservatories this month. Does she still prefer a BM over a BA?</p>
<p>As you know there are many schools where she can do a double degree, either BA/BM or BA/MM. From what I could see, the Princeton/Royal Conservatory program is very selective. You would know if your daughter would be a good applicant.</p>
<p>I remember the original problem being that your daughter wants to study music but not give up the study of French, and vice versa. Is it French literature and culture that she is interested in, or simply being able to talk French when in France?</p>
<p>In the past I suggested thinking about a BA in either music or French, and doing violin privately (lessons) and as an extracurricular. But she could also study music and do French privately or in immersion classes outside of school, if her interest in language is more practical than intellectual.</p>
<p>I have written before that I personally am not a fan of double degrees. I feel there are other, less stressful, less expensive ways to accomplish the same learning. Four years later the student may prefer another school (and teacher) for a master’s, or even another path entirely. And double degrees are stressful. I often wonder what the hurry is. Financially, the money saved by not doing a double degree during undergrad years can go toward full grad school. </p>
<p>There are exceptions (Spirit Manager’s son thrived, as she has indicated). Some can commit fully to more than one pursuit, and find a double degree invaluable.</p>
<p>Many of your posts are about double degree programs. Does your daughter want a double degree? Is she more interested in a BM at this point? Has she shown interest in any of the LAC’s or universities for a BA?</p>
<p>Princeton is a great school but I am not sure if the program with the Royal Conservatory looks comparable to full continuous attendance at a conservatory for a master’s. Others may know about this program, I don’t, except for the website.</p>
<p>@compmom thanks for your post… just a reminder…dd is a junior… So we have a year to think about it all. DD is working on audition repertoire for BM programs for fall 2016. </p>
<p>The Princeton/RC program seems appropriately selective. You remember correctly re the music/French matter. It is the whole package she is interested in, at least for now. She can already converse when in France, though fluency improves with immersion.</p>
<p>We have looked thoroughly at the options for double degrees vs. BA’s/ double majors. I think you may be misunderstanding about the dual degree… for the /most part/, we are not looking at BA/MM programs (programs like Princeton’s would be exceptions). It does occur to me that a LAC with such a program might also have a broader range of performance classes and opportunities for a serious performance student who also happens to be a scholar. </p>
<p>At this point, DD does want to pursue a double degree. She is interested in BOTH a BM and a BA, completed over the course of 5 years (so there is no “hurry,” it actually takes longer to come out with only UG degrees). As I may have posted elsewhere, she is interested in some schools that don’t offer dual BM/BA’s but do offer a double major (also a small subset of schools under consideration); however, in that scenario the actual degree is a BM. </p>
<p>It seems like the Princeton/RCM program would be comparable <strong>in style</strong> to a Harvard/NEC BA/MM or Yale BA/MM program. I don’t know what it would be like <strong>in reality</strong>. I hear a lot on these boards from folks who say they (or their kids) were accepted to conservatories, but chose such and such LAC or uni instead. While this seems odd to me, I am assuming a person who was considering a conservatory wouldn’t attend a school with a rotten music program, but one never knows. </p>
<p>Anyway, in addition to a very helpful PM I received, I am hoping someone might have “real life” information to share on the public boards about the BA/MM program or even about serious (conservatory level) musicians who majored in music at P’ton and whether they pursued MMs elsewhere or pursued performance, etc.</p>
<p>Listenmissy, I did a search to reread some of your posts before answering and for some reason, did not remember or catch that your daughter is a junior, and some of your posts were early summer so I then assumed otherwise. My apologies! </p>
<p>We do know a student who did music at Princeton and got involved in musical theater, as a composer and director, which is where she ended up working. We know many students at both conservatories and universities who went on to grad school for an MM or MA, and/or are now on the PhD or DMA track. Many different paths will work out. </p>
<p>You have uncovered programs that don’t often appear on this forum, and it is great that you are getting PM responses. Sometimes comments on specific programs are hard to post publicly, as you intimated. Going to concerts and meeting with people in the department might be helpful if you are in range to visit.</p>
<p>Again, is your daughter interested in French literature or history? Perhaps she would like to go to a summer program in France, such as Fontanebleau…or the Etchings Festival…</p>
<p>Good luck. Your daughter will be well prepared to make choices given your advance work. We were still stumbling around in the dark when my daughter was a junior!</p>
<p>I don’t know anyone who has done the Princeton-RCM program, but like compmom, I do know a recent Princeton graduate who is now doing an MM program at another school, and my son has some student-musician friends currently at Princeton. Like Harvard, Yale and Columbia, the school does seem to draw some seious musicians. If your daughter is interested in going to college rather than the conservatory route, but still pursuing music seriously, it’s definitely worth considering.</p>
<p>I would not, however, suggest choosing Princeton specifically because of the possibility of participating in the RCM program. First, unlike Harvard-NEC, Columbia-Juilliard or other joint programs in the U.S., you can’t apply for the RCM program until you’re a sophomore, so when you make the decision to go to Princeton, you’d have no idea whether you could even get in to the RCM program. And to be eligible to apply, you have to be a music major or else get the permission of your major department. As you know, Harvard-NEC and Columbia-Juilliard are super-reaches, admitting about 6-8 students a year. My guess is that the numbers for the Princeton-RCM program are similarly small or smaller, though it would be worth asking them.</p>
<p>Second, the RCM program is a semester abroad program - you spend first semester of junior year there - so it has no impact on your life while you’re at Princeton. This is in contrast to Harvard-NEC, Columbia-Juilliard, etc., where you take lessons and have ensemble opportunities at the conservatory throughout your time at college.</p>
<p>Third, even if you do the semester abroad at RCM, you’re not guaranteed to be admitted to the MM program there, and if you are admitted, you don’t enroll until after you graduate from Princeton. As compmom points out, by then you might be interested in going to some other school for an MM - it’s not clear why you’d want to limit yourself to RCM.</p>
<p>If you’re a serious musician and decide, for other reasons, that Princeton is the right place for you, the possibility of doing the semester abroad at RCM in your junior year (if you can get in), and maybe going back there for an MM after graduating (if you can get in), is an added bonus. But I don’t think it’s more than that.</p>
<p>That was well-articulated, jazzpianodad. </p>
<p>Thanks gh. Out of curiosity, I did a google search and found this story, which has a very good (albeit somewhat promotional) discussion of music at Princeton and the RCM program. </p>
<p><a href=“London calling: Journeys of musical discovery”>London calling: Journeys of musical discovery;
<p>The story notes that the program was established in 2007 and, since then, 16 students have participated, so the numbers are quite small.</p>
<p>Just want to note that 16 students have done the semester abroad at the RCM since 2007 but a smaller number still have done the MM: in the article one did grad work at Mannes and NEC, and one was" applying to conservatories."</p>
<p>I also noticed that a comparative lit student did the semester abroad, and took some interesting non-performance classes.</p>
<p>The same kind of thing can be accomplished at many schools though, whether through a semester abroad, leave, or funding for summer study. Harvard for example, has the Rockefeller grants for time spent studying abroad. Departmental grants are also possible.</p>
<p>One thing that comes up for some musicians is an interest in “new music” aka contemporary classical. One of my daughter’s friends is doing a program in Switzerand and there is a lot going on in Europe, as well as some US conservatories and schools. Goals and interests can change over college years.</p>
<p>p.s. Fontainebleau and Etchings are summer music programs in France- I wasn’t clear above.</p>
<p>Not that familiar with this program, but the real question would be if DD would be happy ‘doing music’ on the side at Princeton, then do the semester abroad, and then perhaps get in for the MM…I have known some high level musical kids who went to Princeton, who studied with a teacher privately, who did the school orchestra and I believe chamber, and were fine with that, but keep in mind that princeton, like the other Ivies, try to get kids with strong musical backgrounds, it still may not be enough for her (it could be, of course). I know she wants the academic stimulation of a university as well as music, what I worry about would be doing music like she would be doing at Princeton be enough (and only she can answer that). Kids do go to ivies and such UG, like I just wrote, and get into top level MM programs, but the real question is would this work for her? It means checking out the resources at Princeton and seeing if it would work for her (if I remember correctly, Princeton might even pay for the private lessons, but I can’t say that with any kind of real certainty, since my S didn’t go that route)…I knew kids who went to Princeton who for orchestra, did New York Youth Symphony to have the orchestra experience, so there are options there, but you need to check them out. </p>
<p>I agree with JazzPiano, I would look at Princeton as a possible place to got to school and do music ‘on the side’ (ie since Princeton doesn’t have a BM program), and if the RCM intrigued her she could apply and see when the time came. The big difference between this and the Juilliard program is while you have to apply (I think Sophomore year as well) to get into the Columbia/Juilliard joint program (where you finish your UG degree at Columbia, then get an MM at Juilliard) as well, you are accepted into the exchange program, so from the beginning the student is taking lessons with a Juilliard teacher and doing chamber there, so even if they don’t get into the joint program they have the musical experience, a little different than princeton and RCM. Anyway, I agree, apply to Princeton because you think its program could provide the musical level she needs (obviously, will provide the academic!) as is, with the RCM as a possible plus to it. </p>
<p>Thanks everyone! This is so much to think about. @jazzpianodad, thank you for the article and the articulation. For everyone else, thank you for your observations. It’s a lot to think about. </p>
<p>@musicprnt, you raise a lot of good points, and even more to think about. I will say that Princeton does pay for private lessons for music majors, and they do offer a performance certificate separate from the major. So if you had a kid who could go to a conservatory (or even say, was accepted), it seems to me the odds of being accepted into the performance program would be good. I do understand (based on what you all have shared) that it may not be quite such a shoo-in to do the RCM program. But it does appear that there are students at Princeton who pursue music more than just “on the side.” If one were to combine a music major (or double-major) with the performance certificate and/OR the RCM program, it would be a lot of music. </p>
<p>Would it be enough music, and at an appropriate level, for someone who wanted to pursue a career in music? I suppose if at least a significant number are attending conservatories for MM it must be at least okay… but then I don’t actually know. A visit will likely be in order.</p>
<p>So much to think about. Thank you all again.</p>
<p>All I can say for certain is that the Ivies attract music students who are high level players, and yep, some of them go on to get MM’s from conservatories and such. In the end, it has to do with the student and what drives them, if being in an environment where a lot more of the process is them ‘pushing’ themselves, rather than being ‘pushed by the environment’ is okay with them, then they will do well. This has been hashed out before, and my take is that the advantage of the BM is to a large extent it kind of ‘pushes’ the student forward, because everything and anything they do is music, they are surrounded by music students (as opposed to let’s say Princeton, where the concentration of music is a lot lower, obviously), taking all these classes in theory and such, and it can’t be avoided. Some kids when faced with an environment like Princeton, where they are around a bunch of bright, academically talented kids, might be prone to let the music slip, might not put in the practice time, might not seek out performance opportunities, other kids passion for music is such that they will be driven hard by the music no matter what surrounds them…nice part about Princeton and the ivies is they seem to appreciate music/the music students, so it isn’t like they are at a school where music is seen just as some sort of club or whatever…and they tend to have decent orchestras and such. Princeton has an advantage that you are close to NY there, so you D could conceivably study with a teacher there (or maybe with someone at Curtis, Philadelphia is accessible), and if she wanted, do something like New York Youth Symphony or some such…(and obviously, I am not saying Princeton is the only place you can do this, same would apply to Columbia, Yale or Harvard, for example, or prob many other similar schools). </p>
<p>My daughter has a friend who goes to Princeton and is in a violin studio at Juilliard. It’s a little easier to get to NYC from Princeton than to Philly but both are doable.</p>
<p>@listenmissy - I think your question “would it be enough music” is exactly the right one, and only your daughter can answer it. Clearly there are some great musicians who go to Princeton, continue with their music, and go on to graduate studies and careers in music. But equally clearly, the music program at Princeton (or Columbia or any other non-music college) is not the same sort of music immersion that you’d get at a conservatory.</p>
<p>My son ended up at Columbia rather than a conservatory because he ultimately decided he wanted the “full college” experience and he saw a path to go there and still continue to pursue his music seriously. But it wasn’t an easy choice. And I think he would have chosen the conservatory route if he had not been confident that, in addition to the music performance program at Columbia, he’d be able to access music resources in NYC outside Columbia. As much as he’s appreciating the music at Columbia - and it really has been great for a non-conservatory - if that were the full extent of his music, I don’t think it would be enough for him. Setting aside practice time, which he does mostly at Columbia, I would say that over half his music activities are done outside of Columbia.</p>
<p>He didn’t apply to Princeton because he thought the music program there (which appears to be pretty comparable to Columbia’s), without more, wouldn’t be enough. And he didn’t think it would be feasible to access the music resources of NYC on a regular basis from Princeton. @musicprnt mentions kids at Princeton who have done the New York Youth Symphony, which is a fantastic program, and @glassharmonica mentions a Princeton student who is in a violin studio at Juilliard. So it can be done. But NYC resources are obviously easier to access if you’re going to school in NYC.</p>
<p>Of course, other cities offer opportunities to do music outside the college (lessons, performing), as well 
</p>
<p>For a student with a deep interest in French literature, this is an option (going to university and supplementing with music outside). Alternatively, at conservatory, the student could take elective classes in French at a nearby university. Doing a double major might work (we know a young man at Harvard who majored in music and French) or a double degree, as offered at Bard, Oberlin, Lawrence, Harvard, Tufts and so on.</p>
<p>One reason to do music outside of college might be cost: going to a university with financial aid and using resources offered by a conservatory nearby (teacher, primarily) w/out matriculation there, can be cost effective. Frankly, this path was recommended to us as an alternative to double degree, which involved payment to the conservatory as well as the college. Conservatories offer merit aid but financial and merit aid aren’t always at a level that makes attendance possible.</p>
<p>The daughter really needs to decide if she wants to be in an environment that is all music, or wants an environment with peers who are doing many different things. And she needs to decide how best to address all of her interests and goals. My own daughter applied to both conservatories and colleges and ended up deciding in late April, the night before the deadline for final answers! It is a decision that can be questioned for years, and also one that is not written in stone: students can and do change their minds once on campus and transfer from conservatory to college or vice versa.</p>
<p>@compmom - didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. Just commenting on the relative ease of access to NYC resources from Princeton NJ versus from NYC. My son did seriously consider schools in other cities, but felt he needed to be in a city, so schools like Princeton came off the list. He also took to the very end of April to make his decision. :)</p>
<p>Sounds like he made a good one!</p>
<p>Thanks, @jazzpianodad and @compmom, lots to ponder, and I will be interested to see how the year unfolds for my musician!</p>