Any Ivies or Peers not overrun with a 'hippie infestation'?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
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<p>My daughter is a HS Jr. and deep in the college selection process and is trying to determine the best fit. While she is not defined by the two parties (well, she hasn’t even voted yet), she does find that many conservative analysts (George Will, etc) are often more insightful and well considered than their liberal counterparts. </p>

<p>This is not to mean that she is conservative politically (quite to the contrary at least on social issues), nor is she a supporter of organized religions (but she is spiritual) simply that she does not use 'republican' or 'conservative' with same negative connotations as those she is told that throw these words around on some liberal campuses. Additionally, she does volunteer work but is still hoping to make a more than comfortable living when she completes her undergrad/grad journey - money, in her view, is not the exclusive domain of evil oil barons’ - and she loves shoes.</p>

<p>Her credentials are nearly perfect (what a kid) so she will likely have her choice of many elite schools but we both hope to locate a campus for her to thrive. So far, anecdotally she has been told that neither Brown nor Dartmouth nor many of the small LAS colleges would be the best fit. She has also been told that Stanford, Northwestern, and Penn are more preprofessional and are often considered less immersed in the liberal establishment. </p>

<p>She has ranked her top 5 initial impressions (from college visits) as Stanford, Northwestern, Yale, Dartmouth (she loved the campus), Harvard. She likes the idea of typical college experience with large competitive sports programs so is why I think Stanford and Northwestern were ranked highest. She did not care for the vibe at Duke, although her experience was with a group of more southern applicants so that may have unduly influenced her. </p>

<p>I attended the great University of Illinois (I tried to convince her as Fiske Guide says "Illinois is a budget Ivy") where liberal leanings are much less pronounced, she is not overly interested.</p>

<p>If you believed Obama was a good speaker but that he was incredibly inexperienced and lacked gravitas - and was not the Second Coming? (My thoughts, not hers, but we are often of similar leanings) would you feel free to confess this openly to your faculty or on the quad?</p>

<p>All thoughts, impressions, and insights into any of her top ten: Stanford, Northwestern, Yale, Dartmouth, Harvard, Princeton, Cornell, Penn, Brown, Duke - or other schools such as Vanderbilt, Pomona College or U Chicago that may help her with her decision are encouraged.</p>

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<p>From my understanding, Dartmouth, Harvard, and Princeton seem to be the most “conservative” of that list, Penn and Stanford the most “moderate,” and Brown and Yale the most “liberal.” At any one of those schools, however, you will find a significant population of all persuasions; if your daughter is socially liberal, then she likely fits all 10 schools. When I have spoken to current students at Penn, they say that it takes effort to be unhappy on campus and that finding people of similar (or different) opinion is usually not that difficult; with 10, 000 undergrads, it is easy to see why this would be true. I was admitted ED to Penn this year and there are many reasons why I chose Penn over Brown, Cornell, Bowdoin, and Swarthmore. Just for the record, since freshman year, I was set on Cornell, yet when I visited Cornell and then Penn, which I was not even considering at the time and I was “dragged along” by a friend, Penn won me at first sight. Attending a school in the city provides unparalleled opportunities—at Penn, their community outreach programs (The Hub and other organizations) are huge! Sports at Penn do not appear to be special, but Penn’s rivalry with Princeton seems to be great.
I want to major in biochemistry, and Penn has over 200 biochemistry labs, 6 Nobel laureates in the Chem dept alone, and the rigorous Vagelos Molecular Life Science Scholars Program in which students may either earn two bachelor’s degrees (one in biochemistry or chemistry and another in a science of choice) or submatriculate to earn their master’s in chemistry (in four years)! To me, even though Penn’s chemistry/biochemistry departments are not ranked in the top 10, the opportunities at Penn are so much greater. If your daughter wishes to pursue business, Wharton (Penn’s business school) is the best and will present its students unique job offerings; Penn’s nursing school is among the oldest and best, and Penn’s graduate school of medicine is in caliber with Harvard and Hopkins (forget HYP, think HHP for med). Penn is preprofessional (Stanford and Northwestern are fairly similar, and Cornell is with some of its 7 undergrad schools), but that is NOT a negative aspect if your major falls within that expectation.
You forgot to mention in what your daughter would potentially aspire to major–that is probably THE biggest factor. Especially because your daughter is seeking the right social fit for her, I am not accusing you or her of prestige seeking. However, when your daughter evaluates that list of colleges, after narrowing her choices down to the right social climate, she really needs to think about what she envisions herself doing. All the schools you listed are fantastic (obviously!), but focus on their strongest points, despite the fact that almost everything about each is strong: Northwestern for journalism/communications and engineering; Stanford for law and engineering; Yale for medicine and politically-related majors; Dartmouth for language and neuroscience; Harvard for law, business and medicine; Princeton for law, chemistry and mathematics (it also is the only Ivy with aerospace engineering); Cornell for engineering (best of the Ivies) and life sciences (do note that Cornell’s location is a HUGE down-side for most people, including me); Penn for business and medicine; Brown for humanities and applied mathematics; Duke for (biomedical) engineering and economics. Good luck choosing! It is a tough decision, but falling in love with one school is the best feeling ever.</p>

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<p>Thank you for you very well spoken thoughts and insights. I will be sharing these with my daughter and believe they will be invaluable in helping her narrow her choices.</p>

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<p>Penn is very socially liberal, but probably more fiscally moderate. You still have a lot of people who define themselves as all around very liberal (Michelle Obama spoke here in November along with Ed Rendell and several other state democrats), but there definitely are plenty people who view themselves as fiscally conservative, and even some who are socially conservative. I think Wharton balances things. People often say Penn is pre-professional, but it still has a very intellectual environment. You can even see it among people in Wharton and engineering.</p>

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<p>This is a fundamentally silly question. All of the universities named are essentially elitist, establishment institutions whose student bodies are dominated, numerically, by students from wealthy, high-achievement families, to which is added a substantial corps of brilliant, ambitious, high-performing kids from poor backgrounds. Regardless of where people stand on the Democrat-Republican spectrum, there is hardly a “hippie” in sight anywhere. Liberal or conservative, few if any students are taking vows of poverty, and if they are it’s not to turn on and drop out, it’s to make a serious play on a Nobel Prize some day. </p>

<p>Sure, in conventional political terms all of the campuses lean liberal. That’s because (a) the students are all young, and demographically the young tend to lean liberal, (b) the thought leaders (teachers, administrators) are all holders of advanced graduate degrees, another group that demographically tends to lean liberal, and (c) the elite institutions are thoroughly secular, which means that people who want a religious environment – an important part of the conservative population – tend not to go there or teach there.</p>

<p>But leaning liberal hardly means that conservative voices are unheard. These are the bastions of the American Establishment, and the American Establishment is, in the final analysis, pretty conservative. Every single one of these campuses has strong conservative voices. (Well, at least insofar as economic liberty, national security, and skepticism about government is concerned. Religion-based social values conservatism tends not to be well-represented anywhere among these colleges.) Conservatives at Yale or Dartmouth love to whine about what an embattled minority they are, but some of the most (and most intelligent) conservative people I know went to college at those schools, and if you google the Yale Party of the Right or the Dartmouth Review you can tell they are having more fun than anyone has a right to.</p>

<p>Worry about getting in, not hippie infestations.</p>

<p>(I always love it when parents write about how strong their high school student’s political conservatism is. In my experience, those are the kids most likely to swing hard left during college. The strongest college conservatives I know are children of bemused left-wing parents.)</p>

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<p>Desperatu: It was my pleasure sharing! Applying to college is scary and I did not have access to good resources for college counseling, so websites like CC were indispensible (if you ignore the ■■■■■■ and the snobs). I really do wish your daughter (and you) the best of luck!</p>

<p>Poeme: I am a senior in high school, so I obviously am not on campus yet, but I totally agree with your assessment. Penn is very very socially liberal (arguably, most of the 10 listed are); Penn is allegedly one of the “gay-friendliest” campuses in America. However, it is also one of the most sought-out by Jewish students, including those of the conservative sect, so it does balance out, especially because Wharton is fairly conservative (financially and socially, from what I can tell). I am among those who would venture into calling myself all-around very liberal (and I would be ecstatic to hear Michelle Obama speak, so I hope she does again). </p>

<p>Also, Penn is pre-professional because Ben Franklin founded the university for those reasons of practicality. However, Poeme brought up a great point I forgot to mention: Penn does have a very intellectual environment, seen in all 4 undergrad schools (Wharton, Engineering, Nursing, and College of Arts & Sciences). I do not know about the other schools, but Penn actually has a fairly demanding liberal arts curriculum in the CAS ([College</a> Curriculum - Course Listing](<a href=“http://fission.sas.upenn.edu/col/genreq/index.php]College”>http://fission.sas.upenn.edu/col/genreq/index.php)), which stimulates scholarship with breadth. Keeping this in minde, the Penn Curriculum is NOT Columbia’s Core, by any means, because Penn’s allows for student choice of satisfying requirements whereas EVERYONE at Columbia MUST take certain courses. I look forward to everything Penn has to offer :)</p>

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<p>JHS: There is truth in what you are saying about demographics and statistics, but Desperatu did not post with hopes of hearing cynicism from people not looking to be insightful. I could be wrong, but Desperatu appears to be a successful mother who attended a state university and knows that her bright daughter has earned the best, should she want it. In some ways, I know these schools are “elitist,” and there are plenty of students on campus who propagate this vibe. However, this comes with bright, over-privileged students. From what I noticed, the majority of bright students do not fit the mold of elitism, even though they come from well-off families. I am one of the students you mention who comes from a poor background. I am from a low-income family and attend a public high school that does not send many students to top universities or liberal art colleges; the last Ivy (or equivalent) was to Yale in 1984 and the last LAC was to Bates in 2006. Maybe Desperatu’s wording was off, but she essentially meant that she was hoping to hear of a school without tree-hugging liberals (like those of Brown, whom I personally adore, by the way).</p>

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<p>I am a fairly right wing guy and am a student at the University of Pennsylvania. From what I have seen so far, the Penn student body tends to be fairly liberal. Alot of people I know will say they are moderates. What that really means is that they are fiscally moderate and as radically left wing as you can get socially. For individuals who are Christian and have those conservative social values, it will be hard to find a large group of people to rally with at Penn. Also, it seems like all the churches on campus are some of the most notorious bastions of liberalism on around (look up the Christian Association). However, you can still find your niche here no matter what your views are. Its just easier to do so if you come in with certain values.</p>

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<p>MoonBleeds, I’m sorry you thought my post was cynical and lacking insight. That wasn’t the intent at all. Honestly, I was trying to counterbalance your post, and to address the OP’s question. Penn sounds like a great choice for you, and you have good reasons for it, but your view of the relative strengths of other colleges is, um, not reality-based. Someone who views herself as a George Will-type conservative will not feel out of place at any of those colleges. (Maybe I should have mentioned, although it’s pretty obvious, that if the OP’s daughter wants big-time sports and more conservatives, Vanderbilt is a great choice, and Pomona not so great. The University of Chicago has more and stronger conservative voices on campus than most, but the university as a whole is still left of center, and it’s not the place to go for college pep rallies.)</p>

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<p>It sounds as if your daughter is a Libertarian (the best political party)
no problem with that ;)</p>

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<p>Desperatu - my S is very fiscally conservative, hawkish on national defense issues, but socially liberal (pro choice, supports gay marriage, etc). He is more conservative than my husband and I are. Son is going to Northwestern and is already investigating various political groups on campus to join. It won’t be a problem.</p>

<p>Frankly I think fiscal conservatives and fiscal liberals can easily coexist on most campuses. It is social conservatism that is more problematic. Most young people today are socially liberal, as are most educated people. That’s how it goes.</p>

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That’s a good point, although I find it hard to believe (speaking from a nonpartisan standpoint) that anyone can see George Will as significantly more “insightful and well considered” than most other journalists.</p>

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<p>I don’t know. I’m pretty liberal but I enjoy George Will even when I disagree with him.</p>

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<p>JSH: Thank you for your explanation. I really must say that I myself could not see that I suggested that Desperatu’s daughter would be happy at any one of those schools when I said, “At any one of those schools…you will find a significant population of all persuasions; if your daughter is socially liberal, then she likely fits all 10 schools,” and also, “it takes effort to be unhappy on campus and that finding people of similar (or different) opinion is usually not that difficult.” Penn is indeed a great school for me, and, as I am sure we both agree, even though it is fairly liberal, Desperatu’s daughter (and anyone else’s daughter for that matter), as you’ve said, “will not feel out of place at any of those colleges.” I also agree that Vanderbilt likely fits said daughter’s needs most and it definitely should be a college she investigates more. While my evaluation of the other schools is subjective, the views were based upon what is generally accepted. Perhaps I have missed the obvious, but I do not see how my claims have been “counterbalanced” and in which ways my views on other schools are, um, “not reality-based.”</p>

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<p>Penn, like any Ivy, is quite liberal as a whole. However it definitely lacks the “hippie” segment of far-left ideologue students that are so prevalent at other Ivy campuses. I credit the Wharton school as a magical talisman of sorts that wards off evil hippie spirits. Also the History department is home to a few conservative or conservative-ish luminaries (Kors, Waldron, McDougall come to mind)</p>

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<p>I’ve found it really fascinating over the four years to see how people have changed. During my freshman year, people actually scoffed at the fact that I am a registered Republican. Being conservative in the social circles I was in was seen actually as normatively wrong. That said, although I am quite interested in politics (political science major) and government, political views certainly do not decide who my friends are. </p>

<p>This has allowed me to remain friends with people as they have gone through college, and I have noticed one thing at Penn: people become more fiscally conservative as they progress through undergraduate. The same people who, freshman and sophomore year, were adamant about the need for government supported aid to the poor and to developing countries almost all had a quick change of heart when they did their junior internships and saw how much of their paychecks went to taxes!</p>

<p>The net result is that Penn freshmen are overwhelmingly liberal (with many notable exceptions), but that Penn seniors are a much more diverse group with regard to economic issue politics. Relatively consistently, however, Penn students are, just as almost all college students, predominantly socially liberal.</p>

<p>One important note: if you are the type of person who actively seeks out people of similar political persuasions, you will have no trouble. However, if you are someone who cares about politics but not enough to make that a defining factor in finding friends, you may be frustrated as a conservative on campus!</p>

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<p>I’m very sorry but I felt I had to say something on this point at least. No offense intended but… nobody on the left ever thought Obama was the Second Coming. I won’t argue he was inexperienced to an extent but so was Bush. I’m just saying… the Second Coming thing was more an insult from the right attacking the left’s idealism towards Obama… but none of us ever behaved like he was… just to nitpick a little.</p>

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<p>Uhh… are you sure about that? It was pretty ridiculous on campus with the Obama-love. In 2008, if you said something against Obama, it was basically like you were either an idiot or evil. It is no longer anywhere near that level, but Obama was pretty idealized until the healthcare bill passed.</p>