<p>My impression is that one needs AP Calc to be admitted to an Ivy - except for kids who are recruited. Is this not correct? I don't think I've met a kid in our district who got into an Ivy after taking just standard Calc. </p>
<p>Would appreciate any insight into this. Thanks!</p>
<p>My friend got into Cornell taking honors Calc. But obviously taking advantage of your resources helps</p>
<p>To start with, not all schools offer it. </p>
<p>My older daughters private prep didnt offer any AP courses, and a good portion attend Ivies and other competitive schools.</p>
<p>Not all students major in something that needs calculus, certainly not in high school.</p>
<p>Yes, without any calculus or pre-calculus, and no science senior year, but a talent in the arts.</p>
<p>Harvard, for one, asserts that admissions recognizes applicants have different strengths and weaknesses. </p>
<p>Harvard offers the following courses, according to <a href=“Harvard Mathematics Department Administration and Finance”>http://www.math.harvard.edu/courses/index.html</a> :</p>
<p>Math 1a, 1b: regular first and second semester frosh calculus courses
Math Ma, Mb: slower paced version of frosh calculus that covers Math 1a over two semesters (like high school AP calculus AB)</p>
<p>The existence of these courses indicates that there are some Harvard students who have not had any worthwhile calculus course in high school (although some may have had a low quality high school calculus course).</p>
<p><a href=“The Harvard Crimson | Class of 2017”>http://features.thecrimson.com/2013/frosh-survey/academics.html</a> indicates that, for the frosh entering in 2013, 0.8% completed math lower than precalculus, 5.2% completed precalculus, and 94% completed some calculus or higher math course in high school.</p>
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<p>Not sure what the purpose of a “standard Calc” course that is less rigorous than AP calculus AB would be. AP calculus AB is already a slower paced version of college frosh calculus. Surely a high school student who is accelerated in math (to complete precalculus in 11th grade or earlier) can handle AP calculus AB (and probably most such students can handle AP calculus BC coming out of precalculus, since college frosh who are not accelerated in math are expected to handle college frosh calculus courses that AP calculus BC approximates).</p>
<p>Yes I am also not sure what a calculus course less than AP is meant to be. Neither my school nor my kids’ school had such a thing. </p>
<p>The small minority of kids mentioned who did not complete any calculus were likely accepted on other merits–athletic, artistic, etc.</p>
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Keeping with the Harvard example shown above:
• Math Ma+Mb is Math 1a taught over two semesters.
• Math 1a is the equivalent of Calc AB
• Math 1b is the equivalent of the Calc BC topics.</p>
<p>After that, you have the 3rd and 4th semester calc options (21/23/25/55)</p>
<p>If Harvard feels the need to have a dizzingly large number of entry points for calculus, why is it wrong for high schools to act similarly? The artist/poet/musician who arrives at the calc crossroads senior year will certainly not be racing into AB/BC with their STEM-oriented classmates, nor will the STEM guys be fulfilling their fine arts requirement with AP Studio Art.</p>
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<p>However, the artist/poet/musician who is weak at math will probably not be accelerated in math, and will be taking precalculus as a senior (although some take statistics instead of precalculus after algebra 2). But also note that math skill and music skill seem to go together more often than one might expect.</p>
<p>Some of the STEM-oriented students may also be interested and good in art, and may choose to take an AP art course.</p>
<p>“If Harvard feels the need to have a dizzingly large number of entry points for calculus, why is it wrong for high schools to act similarly?”</p>
<p>Harvard needs to accommodate talented kids who didn’t have these opportunities in high school. That’s very different from having the chance to take AP Calc and passing it up. Of course you can always find an admissions exception, but I tell the kids who want Ivies to take the toughest schedule the school offers, and to understand that their chances will go down if they make a different choice. Harvard has plenty of artists and poets to choose from who also aced AP calc.</p>
<p>“The artist/poet/musician who arrives at the calc crossroads senior year will certainly not be racing into AB/BC with their STEM-oriented classmates”. I’m not sure why you would say this. In our school, some of the AB and BC students certainly are artists/poets/musicians.</p>
<p>Harvard has a “dizzying” number of calculus classes because they enroll a lot of talented students who are able to do more than a typical calc class, enough that it makes sense for them to offer some more advanced options. It’s not a measure of the weakness but rather the strength of the student body. 20% of the students have already completed math beyond BC, but their preparation may vary and I guess this can meet different student needs.</p>
<p>I assume the slower paced calculus class includes some precalculus review for those who need that. Do they even offer precalculus? I would think that is high school level.</p>
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As a senior? I don’t know how all high schools work, but at mine, most students took precalculus as juniors. Accelerated students took it in 10th grade.</p>
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<p>Presumably, precalculus is “hidden” in Math Ma and Mb, to avoid there being an explicitly remedial math course.</p>
<p>For the various Ivy League schools:</p>
<p>No precalculus course: Yale, Columbia, Penn</p>
<p>Slow paced calculus course with precalculus (two terms covers up to what the first term of the regular frosh calculus covers) offered: Harvard, Brown, Dartmouth</p>
<p>Remedial precalculus course offered: Princeton</p>
<p>I’m not sure if it’s necessary to take AP Calc, but it IS necessary to get that “most rigorous coursework” checkmark in the guidance counselor’s recommendation. I’d guess at most schools it’s pretty hard to qualify for most rigorous while managing to avoid AP Calc – perhaps due to a scheduling conflict?</p>
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<p>Probably the main situations would be:</p>
<ul>
<li>Student was not placed in accelerated math in middle school, so s/he is on the regular math track ending with precalculus in 12th grade.</li>
<li>School does not offer AP calculus (or similar, like IB math HL or dual enrollment calculus) – probably less common now than in the past.</li>
</ul>
<p>My son went to a boarding school with tough academics. Almost no student took a full slate of AP courses and they were encouraged to take ones that fit their interests. My son did not take AP Calc. He did take regular calc, which moved at a slightly slower pace and was not geared completely towards the AP exam. He had other AP classes in the English/History areas. I think he took AP Stat and it was a disaster all the way around. He attended an Ivy, as did many of his classmates who did not take all AP classes.</p>
<p>More correctly Ma+Mb is the equivalent of Calc AB since it is over two semesters, as are most Calc AB courses. And thus, Math 1a is an accelerated version of Calc AB</p>
<p>Back when I was at Harvard in the dark ages there was a pre calc course (Math Ar if I remember correctly) - you didn’t get college credit for it, but it did prepare you to take Calculus for credit. </p>
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In general I agree, but I will say that admissions officers who came to our school always claimed that you did not have to take every AP your school offered. If the choice is getting a B- in calculus vs an A+ in AP Euro you are probably better off doing the latter. I can only offer up the experience of my oldest who decided not to take either AP English course. He took AP Econ and APUSH for his not STEM APs. Then he took the big three science APs, AP Calc BC (as a junior), AP Comp Sci (freshman year) and a Linear Algebra course as a high school senior. He took another non AP science course also senior year (Astrophysics which was labeled honors). He was able to sell himself as a very, very strong comp sci guy. He was not a dunce in English, but I think he was better off getting an A in an English elective than being miserable in AP English Lit. He got into Harvard, but chose to go to a more STEM heavy environment.</p>
<p>Ivy adcoms look at your choices and performance. To some extent, that gives a glimpse into your thinking, how willing you are to take on challenges, whether you are up to them. (And whether you can in fact, choose wisely.) The fact that any Ivy offers some array of math classes is a different matter than the nature of the competition for an admit, in the first place. </p>
<p>Mathmom gives a good example. Her son didn’t “need” to take AP English. (But note how well the rest of it lined up.) Likewise, an English major with a solid humanities record- and then some- may not, in the strict sense, “need” AP Calc. </p>
<p>OP needs to do some research and thinking. There are all sorts of decisions in hs and at app time, that can reveal more than you realize.</p>