DS1 and I are perplexed about the world of software engineering internships. So I thought I’d post here in search of some answers and direction, since many parents here seem to have in-depth knowledge and give pretty good advice!
DS1 is a junior in CS at a tech school (top 50-100), with a 3.6 GPA . He had a summer 2019 internship with a major Fortune 50 company (not a software company) doing some projects with the new software they were implementing. He has been asked back for next summer. He would prefer to get some other opportunity for next summer, preferably with a software company. He has projects that he has done on his own as well, and so his resume is more than just coursework and the summer internship .
Question: we are getting the impression that software engineering positions at a well known software company are much more competitive than originally thought, even with his experience. Our thinking is that college pedigree and lack of software company internship is playing a role. Should he aim for internships at much smaller companies, but in SE, or in larger non-software companies where the software is a means to an end. There are pros and cons to both. All advice welcome! Thank you.
If you mean the four or five most “well known software companies”, then it should not be surprising that it is very competitive to get hired by them in software roles, since they are so well known that probably almost everyone in the field applies to them.
College attended may affect recruiting by smaller companies, which are more likely to have limited travel recruiting budgets and therefore recruit more locally. Some larger companies recruit very widely across colleges, but that means that their applicant pools are so large that the competition level to get hired is very high.
In terms of past work or internship experience, what matters more is the type of work and achievements, rather than the type of company (although the type of company may affect what types of work employees there do).
Just something to consider - if the Fortune 500 company is asking for your son back, that means that there is also a very good chance that they will offer him a job at graduation.
My wife is a CS professor, based on her observations, one of the reasons that internships increase job placement is because the companies at which the students intern very often end up hiring them.
So my husband currently works and hires at a major software company based on the east coast. I have worked and hired in that industry as well. Has your son visited and talked to placement services at his school for ideas?
One thing I would say is don’t be woo-ed by the biggest names that would be recognizable by a young adult. It’s not surprising those would be the most competitive new grad/internship positions. Many students including those at big name schools flounder a bit through their first 2-3 jobs to figure out a path. There are many companies out there that are software companies. But there are also many companies out there that develop their own in house software too. I’ve seen many software engineers go back and forth between those types of opportunities with the right type of experience. I really think it’s less important who you work for, but what you work on for future opportunities. There is nothing magical about working for a particular company as a new grad. And I know software engineers who’ve move to big well known companies from off beat educational and career paths.
Anyway the company my husband works for currently is a fortune 500 software company that employs 6000+ with many software engineers and it’s a name no one has heard of. But it is extremely interesting software to work on.
As a new grad, I had several jobs and the most fun, dynamic, and ones where I was able to really jump in and learn the most were with start ups and smaller options. You may need to do some homework to find those options but if he has some financial flexibility, I would not be afraid to seek those out. The company my husband currently works for was the result of an acquisition of a small spin off that started with less than 10 software developers and was bought out by a major software company. There have been some major financial benefits to taking the risk with a start up.
If your kid is in a top 100 tech program, he will have plenty of opportunities open to him. Especially if he proves himself through hard work and continual growth of his design, tech and programming skills. I wouldn’t sweat the zillions scrambling for a small number of unique internships. Don’t be afraid to think outside the box. And in the long run and especially after some experience, I haven’t seen a huge benefit to any particular school in software engineering. In fact, I’ve worked for employers that favored state flagship grads because they tend to be self starters and very technically well trained. A single summer opportunity doesn’t define someone’s career path. I spent a summer in college working in embedded software and never did that again. But it certainly did open other doors to me later.
A lot of students don’t do internships until after junior year, so it’s great your son had one this past summer. Do companies come on campus to recruit?
My son was in CS, did internships after sophomore and junior year (the latter tried to hire him then, which would have meant not finishing his degree) at big name companies. During fall of senior year he flew out a few times to interview, at the companies where he had interned (he already had had offers there as I remember) and three or four more.
In the end, he chose a big company that he had interned for, and then ended up for a much longer time at a start up with co-workers he met at college or at his original place of employment.
I get the software as the focus vs software as a means to an end. It really is a preference question I think since internships are likely to influence job choice. But that’s just my own view.
Don’t turn your nose up at working for a Fortune 50 company, rather than a software company. Plenty of those companies will have some cutting edge work for him. If they liked him and asked him back, that’s a very good thing.
My husband was a software engineer for his entire career. He never worked for a software company.
We have enough financial flexibility to help out if he is able to land one these types of options. He is faced with the bird in the hand vs. two in the bush quandary. As @Massmomm points out, a Fortune 50 company is not something to turn your nose up at. I have asked him to consult with the placement office as well.
With high end jobs, the bird in hand is usually the better choice unless it is completely unacceptable. Getting hired to any high end job is a reach, so turning down an acceptable job for mere possibilities of other jobs increases the likelihood of no job.
Here’s some thoughts from a SW engineer (recently retired) and parent of a senior year CS student.
Landing CS internships is more difficult than most think. It does, however, get easier for sophomores, juniors, and seniors that are matriculating to grad school.
There are differences between software companies and companies that have software capabilities to support their business. Based on your son’s area of expertise, one type of company may offer more opportunities than another. Does he have a CS specialty that he’s interested in?
While landing internships at the big-name SW houses is extremely competitive it’s also an opportunity for students to shine on their own merits. If your son has prepared himself for code tests there’s no reason he shouldn’t give it a try. IMO, having industry recognizable, big-names on your eventual resume is a plus.
If his last internship company is offering to bring him back, he has a bird-in-the-hand, but I would not recommend that he simply take that offer without investigating other options. Instead, I’d suggest that he actively seek out other opportunities for as long as he can. If that company places a deadline on his decision, then he’ll need to make the tough call.
Summer internships are a great way of gaining work experience, but I think it’s more important that the experience is in the areas where the student will eventually look for employment. We have advised our son to avoid taking offers that are not aligned to what he’s most interested in. Thankfully, he has not been faced with possibility. He used the following priorities on looking for summer internships:
SW companies where he could use his area of specialization
Non-SW companies that are developing disruptive SW capabilities in-house that utilize his area of specialization
While it is ideal to seek jobs in one’s area of interest, it depends on relative supply and demand for people in that specialization. Someone whose specialization is rare among job seekers but sought-after by employers is in a better situation looking for jobs than someone in a specialization common among job seekers but not in demand among employers. A job seeker in the latter situation cannot be too picky.
Of course, employer demand for specializations can change quickly, so any CS student should learn a broad range of foundational concepts as well as his/her specialization of interest.
I think most, if not all, CS programs are based on foundational concepts. The large SW houses base their code tests on just that - concepts that all CS students regardless of specialization should know. It is the startups that are more likely to give position-specific code tests that reveal understanding of specialized learning.
For every area of specialization there are a handful of companies big and not-so big that are highly sought after by CS students. If the OP’s student specializes then I’d recommend exploring those, and similar, opportunities - while keeping the bird-in -the hand warm and well fed.
I meant the more upper level concepts that are widely used across specialties (e.g. operating systems, networking, databases, algorithms, security) beyond the programming, data structures, and basic algorithms that are commonly tested in software interviews.
I guess my overall thought is that if your son is interested in “X”, then he should actively pursue internships with companies that are leading in the field of “X” or are disrupting the field of “X”. This could be a big company or a startup. It may be easier to just stick with current offer, and maybe in the end that will be his only offer. But now is the time to swing for the fences - at least try. You never can tell, he might hit a dinger!
I like the comment about keeping this bird in the hand fed and warm, but getting another bird this summer. Chances are the offer at last summer’s internship will still be there and he may also get an offer if he interns elsewhere this summer. That said, if he really liked his internship last summer, he could consider forming a deeper relationship in a second summer.
Many CS grads change jobs after a few years, apparently. It is up to him whether he is sure he wants to start where he was last summer, or wants to have another choice. And it most likely won’t be limited to those two either.
Disclaimer here: you are getting some really excellent, expert advice from folks in the field and mine is merely anecdotal from my son’s experience and those who he works with
I’m not an expert, my son is in CS, but graduated 8 years ago. His original after sophomore year internship fell through victim of the 2008 recession. He got a different internship at the last minute (March or April) thanks to contacts from his college. He didn’t love the company - they were debugging graphics processing units that he thought needed to be reprogrammed from the start. The next year, again friends from college put his name up for an internship at a well-known company. He still had to go through all the usual hoops, multiple interviews and taking the coding tests. He’s been working there happily ever since.
Anyway, I highly recommend that he reach out to older students and grads. If there is any sort of list-serv where alum chat - he should get involved. I was surprised at how much of a difference that made for my normally not very social son.
While that may be ideal (equivalent to a college applicant getting an early action or rolling safety early in the process while continuing to apply to other colleges), many employers expect a commitment decision relatively quickly (more equivalent to an early decision offer where the admitted applicant must decide soon if it is financially feasable to matriculate, and then withdraw other applications if so). If this is the case, then the student needs to make the decision on that offer before knowing if he has any other offers.
On the other hand, if the existing offer does not require a commitment decision in a short time, then by all means he should continue to look to see if he can find something else that is more preferable.
Two different schools of thought (yes, my husband and both hire SWE): 1.) look for an internship with the best actual training. Government sector programs can be pretty good, look at national lands across the country. They all run large summer programs that are very student-focused. Pay and redo are good too. 2.) since he’s a junior target an internship at company that offers their interns employment after graduation and someplace he would want to work. Most places I know of want to hire their interns after graduation and will make offers 9 months in advance, so focus on where he wants to work.
@Techno13 He is targeting companies where he thinks he may like to work after graduation. He is not sure he wants to go back to the company from last summer, but with the bird in the hand offer, he is feeling a bit unsure. BTW, the company made him a return offer at the end of last summer, and he had only a couple of weeks to decide and so he declined at that time. But the bird flew back to him last week. As @ucbalumnus pointed out, I doubt they’re giving him much time to decide.
It’s still fairly early in the season, so part of me thinks he can keep looking. He is planning to apply to some government run programs that look interesting to him. But I am also a risk averse person, and so part of me thinks may be he should look into the current offer some more - the company has multiple groups in software, and perhaps he can investigate that further. (Do they sell crystal balls on Amazon?
Since neither me nor my husband are in this field, I very much appreciate everyone’s candid answers. With friends and family that work in the area, I often get diplomatic responses, for understandable reasons.
My son was an honors math major who added a second major in CS at a top tier (top 20?) school for those. He honed his skills at a major in its field firm locally then was recruited by a major firm in another field when he was about to start looking for a change (skipped details because the concept is starting one place before moving up). Please note that others talk about how the first job may not be a “forever” job. He should keep this in mind. After he has work experience he can refine his goals.
Sorry- can’t answer other questions but wanted to emphasize that the first job doesn’t need to be the ideal one. btw- his job titles have been software developer or engineer depending on the company- they seem interchangeable. I know neither is research (he chooses to not get into that). Nor is his background engineering.
Well, those government internships are great learning experiences, but don’t expect anything to happen very quickly. I think applications are due end of month and then there may not be notification until March. Least that was my d’s experience. She had another internship lined up when the government offer finally came in. The company was great, let her out, and then took her the following summer.
I’m going to suggest that maybe your student use internships as a chance to sample. Students think they know what they want, but sometimes the job is really different than the schooling. After a summer in government, d spent the next summer at an internship at a national brand food company. Very different experience. Loved both. She had an offer from a federal agency at graduation, but while she was waiting for her security clearance (which takes MONTHS), she was applying for the big, pie-in-the-sky software giants and other “cool” jobs. Well, after a LOT of rejections, she got one.
What we learned:
A breadth of internship and work experience is good. You don’t have to specialize.
Big tech will hire you without you having been a intern at that company or a peer company.
You do have to interview well; computer skills are not enough
Getting a job, even in CS, is not a quick and easy process. Bird in the hand is not bad.
Your college’s ranking/program quality/etc. is meaningless. You need to be able to demonstrate what you’ve done, both in and out of CS.
