<p>the quality of students in the class where this discussion took place? And for anyone who knows the answer, hold your tongue until all the folks who want, weigh in.</p>
<p>Teacher: What do you mean by Judgement?</p>
<p>Student 1:The final day when the world is destroyed.</p>
<p>Teacher: When will that happen?</p>
<p>Student 2: The end time is not any more of the earth than now. It is the judgement of conscience at every moment.</p>
<p>Student 3: I believe the day of judgement is when anyone dies; the conscience judges.</p>
<p>Student 4: It doesn't mean any particular day; but they want to express how very certain and real judgement is which goes on all the time, and so they express it in this way, for no words can express it precisely.</p>
<p>I'm very interested in your opinions and will comment this evening.</p>
<p>Oh, the answers should be about education and not about religion. The fact that the question has a religious connotation is merely coincidental.</p>
<p>It is not coincidental because of the answers. How can time and earth be judged? If you are talking about judgement of time and place, then you are talking about God. If you are talking about judgement of people and actions, that can be done by people. But if time ends, what is there to judge? If world is destroyed, is student one implying it was destroyed by God and then judged, or God destroyed it? Student 2 is in the here and now, judging actions. Student three implies judgement only take place at death, so one's conscience can only judge itself? Student four has the answer least tied to relgion. The fact that Judgement is capitilized suggests a religious conotation. If it were in lower case, it would suggest people's judgement...ie good decisions, choices, etc. With the capital, I am not exactly sure which you mean. As well, with the question when will it happen, that is also religious, so there is no way to anaylize the answers with out bringing in religion and the Judgement Day, of which I do not believe in. If this conversation took place in a public highschool, and in any sort of class, I would be very concerned. I would also want to know why the teacher asked the question, asked the second question, and what the follow-up response was.</p>
<p>Clarification. I am not looking for comments about the subject matter, rather about the quality of the discussion. My ending comments will not be about religion or church-state matters.</p>
<p>Sorry, can't discuss quality of discussion without looking at subject matter. If the question was about going to the moon, or economics, you could look at the discussion. But, because Judgement (with a capital J) has to do with religion, and with religion, you find faith based answers. And the quality of the discussion must have to do with church and state and people. It has to do with people either discussing the topic based on faith, or based on personal analysis. Faith cannot really be discussed in a right or wrong way. So it is not good to ask us to look at the discussion without noting that it is a religious question. It is. Judgement (again a capital J) is a religous concept. It is what it is. So the quality of discussion that is based on a religious foundation must be judged differently than other discussions. Can't be helped.</p>
<p>Okay the confusion is my fault. I will pose 6 questions to answer.</p>
<p>How would you grade the discussion from A-excellent to F-failed for:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>College seniors at Harvard</p></li>
<li><p>College frosh at Harvard</p></li>
<li><p>College seniors at Indiana U</p></li>
<li><p>College frosh at Indiana U</p></li>
<li><p>HS seniors</p></li>
<li><p>HS frosh</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Put aside the content, it could be about jelly beans. Grade the arguement based on the query posed.</p>
<p>I read this exchange last nite and the quality of the argumentative skills of thstudents intriqued me. And yes they are trick questions? Piqued you interest?</p>
<p>"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged." Luke 6:37
"Let History Be My Judge" W. H. Auden
"Attack Saddam now and let history judge, says Rumsfeld"
By David Rennie in Washington
Daily Telegraph, 21/08/2002</p>
<p>I am curious about the context in which the question arose. Orally, there is no capital letter in words. So "judgment" could mean Final Judgment, or it could mean "common sense as in "exercizing good judgment," or assessment ("Judging from the smell, I'd say someone made popcorn.")
So, if most of the students assumed that it had to do with religion, it could be that the question was posed in such a way as to carry religious connotations; or it could be that, the students, being overwhelmingly of the same deep religious faith, immediately assumed it had to do with the Final Judgment. And yet, the answers do not seem to me particularly well-informed or well-articulated.</p>
<p>But if the students were answering from religous faith, then those answers were what they believe. So one can not judge if it was well-informed. I do agree that none of the answers were very clear or well articulated, but faith is often just that, can't be explained. And because some of the answers were based on a religous basis, I won't judge whether they were well informed. A well educated person who is very very religous might answer it one way. </p>
<p>Have you ever read an wrting from mystics, or theologians, or such...very convoluted stuff sometimes, but those thoughts come from a different place. Religious discussion are not the same as other discussions. And, therefore must be looked at differently. That's all I can say. If someone asked me what Communion was in the Catholic church (I am Catholic) my answer might sound very odd. It might sound odd to non Catholics, other Catholics, older Catholics and such.</p>
<p>Have you listened to some faithful adults? Their thoughts are not much different from what you presented. And it can't be about jellybeans. Jelly beans are real. They are not based on teachings, religion. They are tangible. If the question was about, say life after death..if someone said they thought nothing happened, someone else thought they were in heaven next to God, one thought they were with virgins, or whatever, how could you judge the responses? In a room full of educated adults, you would get some really bizarre answers, and how would one judge if they were informed or not?</p>
<p>First the question & particularly the follow-up are sort of poor, unless there was earlier discussion that put them in context that we didn't get to see. </p>
<p>The comments are not very impressive. #2 & #4 are trying to get at a more complex idea-- Judgement as metaphor-- but both are fairly inarticulate. And why is every comment so brief?</p>
<p>Was this an online discussion? Because that might explain the brevity/ disjointedness. </p>
<p>I have a feeling it's going to be Harvard, just because of shock value....</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I have a feeling it's going to be Harvard, just because of shock value....>>
SBmom: I fear you may be right. Cringe, cringe.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>That was just a point, but while these students weren't quite as articulate as some, it is not fair to judge responses when one's religion is involved. Period. There are some religions and believers that I just don't undertand, but I would never question anyone faith and how that was articulated. And I think that is what you are doing. And I think you need to look at the answers in context with the question. If you do not, that is unfair of you and I wonder what your real reason is. I think it is unfair to pass judgement on questions and answers having to do with faith and religion. Yes the answes were not clear> But uninformed? How do we know? And the fact you want us to judge something out of context, without considering the questions asked, and make assumptions about the students, is telling. I know your point is that these supposedly smart people have some really inane answers. But, religious answers are not inane. We may disagree with them, and not undertand where the speakers are coming from, but answers from faith are different then answers to other questions. I can't explain well what happens when I take the wafer. I know what happens, but, my simple answer would never do the Communion Rite justice. </p>
<p>"Righteousness is good morality, and wrongdoing is that which wavers in your soul and which you dislike people finding out about."</p>
<p>"That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly, they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell"</p>
<p>"I have made good judgements in the past. I have made good judgements in the future"</p>
<p>The more you judge, the less you love</p>
<p>These are some quotes on judgement....by some pretty well known people....</p>
<p>The first three students appear to be talking about their own personal idea of Judgement. Student #4 appears to talking about someone else's concept?--"they express it in this way." Since the teacher asked, "What do YOU mean by judgement?", I'm wondering why student #4's answer appears to be referring to what someone else means. </p>
<p>I think it is impossible to <em>judge</em> the quality of the students from such limited information, though I guess if they are pre middle school age, I'd be pretty impressed by a discussion at this level. For older kids, I'm assuming this is the starting point to a more in depth discussion.</p>
<p>I just got back from my poker game and won a buck so it was a good night out with the boys.</p>
<p>More to the point. Last night I was reading a essay about Amos Bronson Alcox, more commonly known as Bronson Alcott, the father of Lousia May, Anna and Elizabeth Alcott. He was an self made educator who found the Temple School in Boston. The exchange cited in my OP was taken verbatim by Alcott's assistant Margaret Fuller from a class of 6 to 10 YEAR old students! I find their depth of thought to be remarkable considering their age, unwilling to merely recite the common Biblical understanding of Judgement Day(I left out the "Day" so as to thwart a Googler), but offer a contrary understanding related to individual conscience, present day temporal judgement, and the observation that mere words are unable to adequately describe a final Judgement Day.</p>
<p>Alcott's pedagogy stressed the inherent intellectual gifts of childred. I think the OP exchange demonstrates the correctness of this opinion. Alas, because Bronson Alcott was the most transcendental of the transcendentalists, highly revered by the likes of Emerson and Thoreau, his idealism doomed him to failure.</p>
<p>Thanks all for participating in this guessing game. And no Citygirlsmom, the post had nothing to do with religion. So there!</p>