Any to add to the list??

D is a HS junior interested in Pharmacy programs with a 0-6 or 2+4 option in the Northeast. We are in South Central PA and her current list for applications this fall includes (in order of her current leanings):

Pitt, Shenandoah University, Northeastern, Duquesne, UConn, and U of Rhode Island. Haven’t visited UConn or URI yet, so they are strong maybes.

Temple will probably make the list for financial aid packages they offer, though she isn’t generally interested in NYC or Philly schools, plus Temple is a 3+4 unless they take a lot of her AP credits. Visited Wilkes and Rutgers and ruled those two out as not feeling right, ruling out Ohio State as well since Rutgers was too ‘big school’ feeling for her and can’t imagine OSU feeling any smaller or more intimate, though both are great schools. She has a quality local state school, Millersville, with a good science program as her safety. UMD does not offer any guarantee or even promise of admission to its undergrads, but would go on her list later if she went the Millersville route and re-applied after two years of pre-reqs.

Application numbers are 2250 SAT (780 Math, 740 Reading), uGPA 3.97, class rank just moved up to 1st, but presume top 3 out of 300 in her high school class to be reasonably conservative based on grade history. Has three 5’s on three AP tests (including bio) so far, with a bunch more this year and next yet to be taken and/or tested.

Two questions, first, are there any other schools in the mid-Atlantic/Northeast region she is missing that might make a good fit?

Second, she is wondering if she should take the SAT again for scholarship purposes to superscore it, take the ACT too since science is a strength, or just go with her current scores which are very good? She had a 227 PSAT which should qualify for NMSF or NMF down the road based on past cut-offs in PA.

We are in that no financial need based aid, but not much free cash for college income range, so scholarship packages are important, though we can afford $10-15K a year before loans need to be taken. D is wonderfully pragmatic and isn’t the type to burden herself to death with loans if at all possible. Schools where any scholarship lasts at least four years, as some stop at year two in Pharm programs are obviously favored. With Pharmacy job market tightening she is thinking of schools with a dual degree program (MBA or MPH) or other ways of making her stand out in the future job market

Any and all advice, or questions I didn’t think to ask, are much appreciated. (-:

Stockton University in Galloway Township, New Jersey offers direct admission to Ernest Mario School of Pharmacy at Rutgers for graduate school. I’ll allow @TheDidactic to take over this one - she knows much more about this school (and schools with good pharmacy programs in general) than I do.

Thanks @minohi, we did learn about some of the direct admission options to Rutgers when we visited. The school was impressive and is going to be doubling the size of the Pharm school building, but neither D or I felt it was a place that appealed to her. Although D is not necessarily looking for a tiny school, and very few smaller ones have Pharm unless they cooperate with a larger school as you mentioned, I don’t think most of the Big Ten type land grant schools will appeal to her, plus getting a lot of OOS aid for Rutgers seems unlikely given how competitive it is and the OOS price tag is pretty high, especially in the professional years.

There are three WVA schools, U of WVA, Marshall and Charleston with Pharm programs, we are still researching those. It looks like Marshall will be graduating their first PharmD class next year, so a very new school of Pharm, though their med and forensic science programs seem well respected.

Hello @Skates76! Glad to hear your daughter is interested in pharmacy. It is an excellent field and luckily enough for her and your family, she has amazing stats and you guys live in an area where there are a lot of pharmacy schools. I’ll answer your two questions first, and then get in about what @minohi said.

  1. I would recommend you guys looking into University of the Sciences (USciences), Massachusetts College of Pharmacy (MCPHS), and Albany College of Pharmacy (ACPHS)(a 2+4 school where she'd have to take the PCAT but be somewhat early assured). They are small schools in great urban areas so there are lots of opportunities. MCPHS is down the street from Northeastern--it's a very small school! USciences is also known as USP or PCOP (Philadelphia College of Pharmacy); it's the first pharmacy school in the country. Very nice and carries its prestige in the pharmacy world but it is also very expensive. I don't know if top scholarships would be enough to carry her through the six years. (BTW all places I just mentioned carry your scholarship through six years.)

Other schools your daughter could consider: SUNY Buffalo, St John’s in NY, and UNC Chapel Hill (I know it’s far away but believe me when I say that Eshelman School of Pharmacy is the best in the country even over Rutgers, Northeastern and all those places.) UMD is another great school. University of Notre Dame Maryland is a smaller Maryland school with a pharmacy program. If she wants to go all the way up to Maine, she could consider University of New England or Husson. I’ve heard great things about the University of Florida but I never looked into it.

  1. Your daughter has an amazing SAT as it is. I'm 99% sure that scholarships are secured for her if she applied somewhere. I don't think she should be too worried about not making a cutoff. However, if she wishes to take the SAT again, that's her choice. It's always worth a try to go with the ACT -- I ended up doing slightly better on the ACT than the SAT, so I used that for most of my places. However Stockton University only uses SAT for scholarships so I had to send my score there. Keep in mind that ACT Science isn't actually science. It's determining and reading graphs, charts...sorta like reading in the SAT. But in the end, it's your daughter's decision. It never hurts to try again as long as she doesn't go over 3 times, but she doesn't really need to.

Moving on from those points, your daughter has a very strong list so far. Pitt, Duquesne, and Northeastern are great. I know a guy who went to Northeastern and absolutely loved it. It is expensive though so keep that in mind. Pharmacy no matter what will be expensive to fund but it’s important to keep that as low as possible. That’s what I plan on doing. Temple is another great pharmacy school. I know someone who went there and loved it, but do consider the safety aspect. I was going to apply there but backed out at the last minute when I was told to stay inside no matter what after dark! If that’s not an issue for you and your daughter though (I’m not used to Philly since I’m from New Jersey, but you’re from SE PA so she might be more accustomed to it.)

Can’t comment too much on Pitt, Duquesne or Wilkes. I think @mommdc’s child went through the process and considered/is attending one of those schools so it might be worth it to ask her as well.

Millersville is a wonderful school. Only caveat is reapplying. I personally didn’t want to do that and stress myself out with worrying about the PCAT, letters of recommendation and reapplying like I’m back in high school. I preferred finding a 0-6 program where I was guaranteed a seat in that pharmacy school. I was told that is the best route for pharmacy. When you get up in those upper college years, it gets more competitive. There are less spots for transfer students so that’s why it’s nice to get in on the ground floor.

About Stockton University, it’s a wonderfully small school. Great campus. They just built and are in the process of expanding their science center. They offer a dual degree program with Rutgers where you spend your first two years at Stockton to work towards your BS in biochemistry and pre-requisites. Then you are guaranteed to Rutgers (given you stay over a 3.0) where you spend the next four years finishing up your BS in biochemistry and getting your PharmD at Rutgers. I know she did cross Rutgers off the list but it is truly a great school! (And I’m totally not just saying that either LOL) I hope she can reconsider in the future. Stockton is also a great school with good merit scholarships.

Also, if it helps, Rutgers offers MPH and MBA dual degrees with the PharmD. :wink:

Your daughter is smart to think about the money though and I wish her the best of luck as she goes through this process! Any questions, feel free to shoot them my way.

Thank you so much, @TheDidactic, great information and very honest and valuable opinions. MCPHS was on my list to ask her about why it isn’t on her list, though my guess is that she loves the idea of a Boston school and Northeastern caught her eye because of NMF scholarship offers if she makes it that far (though still expensive even then). We’ll check it out. And Albany is one I think we both very much overlooked, exactly the kind of suggestion I was looking for, definitely one we haven’t researched.

Agree completely on Temple, even back when I was looking at schools in the '80’s my guidance counselor basically said Temple would be sub-Ivy Elite if it was out in the Philly burbs. An accounting major we know is a freshman there and already had some sketchy moments around campus. St. Johns doesn’t seem to appeal to her and my wife if from Rochester, so the Buffalo winters are likely to keep D away from applying there or at LECOM in Erie, not that Pittsburgh or Boston are exactly bright and sunny (-:

UNC has always been one of those should I or shouldn’t I apply schools. We know it is top-notch and is at her geographic search limits. I think she will apply there, but I know the competition is incredible and don’t want to get hopes up too much, especially aid wise.

Millersville is only 50 minutes away and a really nice and very underrated PA State School. It is her last resort school for the reasons you mentioned, but it was also nice to see it because her 12 yo brother is into science and engineering, super bright, but also high functioning Autism Spectrum Disorder, so staying closer to home and finding a supportive school that covers his interests will be a big thing for him in a few years, and Millersville was a good start on that.

Pitt doesn’t offer any dual degrees except the PharmD/PhD, which is the biggest drawback, but they do have tons of areas to specialize in within their Pharm program. D is highly interested in Pharmacogenetics, which Pitt and Shenandoah (in conjunction with GW) have strong areas of emphasis in. She spent a month last summer at Pitt in their Health Care Scholars program and really liked it there.

Best of luck to you as well and thanks again for all of the great info and advice!!

You’re welcome! One thing – I saw your first post after minohi talking about WV schools. I haven’t looked at the pharmacy school accreditation website lately (Here it is–all you have to do is type in the captcha code: https://www.acpe-accredit.org/deans/schools.asp) but you might want to make sure Marshall and any other schools with new programs have at least candidate status. Ideally, you want them to be accredited but candidate status is okay. (Here’s a PDF explaining the standards: https://www.acpe-accredit.org/pdf/Status.pdf)

Yes, about a year ago I was posting here to get ideas for a list of schools to apply to for my daughter interested in pharmacy. I have learned a lot here at CC since then.

We are also from PA. While we looked at some neighboring states in addition to our own, we untimately wanted my daughter to stay somewhat close to home, a few hours car ride away at the most.

Pharmacy schools we considered for possible merit opportunities:

Ohio Northern
Northeastern
University of Pittsburgh
Duquesne
Temple

We had a similar budget, could pay around $10,000. My daughter also had similar stats. In July of 2014 we went to a Pitt pharmacy day and my daughter liked the campus and town alot. She also got to visit Duquesne and liked it as well. We needed a high enough scholarship to afford the schools. Duquesne gave her their highest academic scholarship of $20,000 and she received full tuition from Pitt. That is good for 4 years at Pitt, 2 year prepharmacy and P1, P2. Then P3, P4 will require taking out grad loans. Duquesne’s scholarship is good for 6 years. But the net cost was $27,000 there and Pitt we have to pay around $12,000.

With the opportunities and hospitals close by and the full tuition she chose Pitt.

If your daughter qualifies for NMF there are also additional schools she might want to look at who give full rides for that distinction. For example University of Kentucky, which has a good pharmacy program.

For Pitt I would apply as early as possible. My daughter asked her junior year teachers at the end of the school year to write her recommendation letters. With our visit we got a free application code. She applied and did essay questions on app, sent a resume of extracurricular activities, had teachers send LOR, school sent transcript in August and we ordered SAT scores, but we made sure supplemental items were received before the required ones (SAT, transcript).
They have conditional admission for pharmacy school at Pitt with certain stats, about half of 108 spots. Once they are gone these spots are gone hence the early application.

Run net price calculators on the college websites, although the merit aid probably won’t show there. Also look at tuition costs for all 6 years and when they are considered grad students.

@mommdc Thank you very much! In searching the site here I had come a cross a few of our other posts and found those extremely helpful as well. If D’s situation works out as your daughter’s did I know she and our entire family would be very pleased. Duquesne has thrown a bit of a curve out there now by offering their merit scholarships for all six years as part of a revamp of their program offerings. That will make the long term math interesting if a similar offer is received, though my daughter favors Pitt at the moment. We have toured the Mylan School at Duquesne, but our actual University visit is in a few weeks to get the entire campus tour and info session. Similarly, daughter spent those four weeks at Pitt last summer, but has her official tour/prospective student visit in the morning before the Duquesne visit in the afternoon. As much as she liked Pitt, I think it was really UPMC she fell in love with.

She intends to apply early, though I need to stay on her since her intentions and actions can sometimes have a little variance, lol, especially when it comes to doing anything early. As for the net price calcs, I find that some of the private schools will ask more about grades and scores and factor in their standard level scholarships, while I have not seen a state or state related school do that. She has been perusing the NMF full rise lists, while also trying not to get her hopes up prematurely on that, but she prefers to stay Northeast to Mid-Atlantic at least at the moment.

Shenandoah is her second choice at the moment and like Duquesne their top scholarship tops out at $20,000, though their overall price is lower than Duquesne. Smaller school, smaller city and actually closer to home for us than Philly or Pitt despite driving through MD and WVA to get there.

I have several friends and co-workers who attended Ohio Northern for law school and they have suggested the pharmacy school there as well, but so far she hasn’t seemed interested, though I have learned that such things can change quickly. (-:

Thanks again for the advice, experience and counsel, D will be reading it later and I already know she will be very grateful as well.

I am glad to help in any way I can. Yes, Duquesne has been more generous with the scholarship than expected and with the early assurance program and now 6 year of scholarship it can be another good option. I think the net price of Ohio Northern was around $20,000 also, several students from our HS go there for pharmacy and love it. For us Northeastern, Ohio Northern and Temple would have meant 4-5 hr drive, Pittsburgh only about 2 hr.

Duquesne was a very easy application to send in, online app was free before Dec 15, SAT scores could be reported on transcript and I think she had to send one LOR and essay was optional, but she sent one anyway.

I would definitely visit maybe UKY this summer and maybe ON. Even if she doesn’t think she would like it.

If she can get a full ride or even full tuition from schools because of NMF it would offer her many opportunities and less debt is always great.

I do think it’s important to have a financial safety school. You mentioned Millersville, I also think Edinboro and Shippensburg have pre-pharmacy, as well as Pitt Titusville and Pitt Bradford.

We looked at Millersville and Shippensburg as her safeties after doing some paper reviews of the PASSHE schools and she enjoyed her Millersville visit quite a bit, Ship was simply not for her. I saw that Edinboro and Slippery Rock have agreements with LECOM and have made her aware of them. Millersville is just under an hour for us and as a financial safety school that plays well, plus has more connections locally for summer internships and the like. I will ask her about UK, she is a basketball fan after all (admittedly her Dad is the bigger b-ball fan, lol, UK would be great to visit for that reason alone). ON is about 7 hours for us, Pitt and Duquesne are 3.5-4 hrs, Philly should only be 2 hours, but being realistic about traffic it could be anywhere from 2-3:30 depending on the day and time.

Wilkes was the other school where we visited the Pharmacy school directly, but even though I grew up near there, she wasn’t feeling it. Very nice people at the school though. VCU is another school we thought about, but like Temple that is a 3+4 school and that leaves another year of professional school to fund with loans. Thank goodness D is even tighter with a dollar than I am.

Will your daughter be an incoming freshman this fall or is she completing her first year? We have a niece who is doing post-doctoral work at Pitt, so that is a resource for us too.

I hear mixed things about the safety of the area around Duquesne, what was your impression there, if you don’t mind sharing?

Yes, I looked at Millersville website and it seemed very nice. A plus that it’s not far from you. I did not know about 3+4 at Temple, but this year you got automatic full tuition there with 3.8 gpa and 32 ACT as far as I know so I was going to have my daughter apply. But then she got her scholarship letter from Pitt and it was her first choice anyways.

I did not go on the Duquesne visit, my daughter went with a group from school. I do think that the neighborhood around Pitt would be nicer, Oakland versus downtown Pittsburgh.

https://pharmacy.temple.edu/academics/pharmd/prerequisites-pharmd

It says on Temple’s pharmacy page is that you can do prerequisites in 2, 3 or 4 years. The number of required credits 62-65 seems comparable with Pitt at 63 credits, so it should work out to do 2 years, especially with AP credits.

Oh I’m sorry, I forgot to answer your question, my daughter will be an incoming freshman at Pitt this fall.

I thought Temple might be possible in 2+4 because she should have 8 or 9 AP courses done by the end of her senior year, though she has only tested on the three from last year to know the scores, but she is doing well in her junior year AP’s and is a good test taker. Temple would be much higher on the list if not for campus safety concerns. I have walked to Duquesne from the downtown/business side of the campus, but don’t know much about the more residential areas that are in the other direction. My personal preference is for a campus with lots of green and open space, but while D likes that it, isn’t as important for her.

I really do like the idea of her looking into UK, I went on their website and found it very informative and the school looked very promising, as did the scholarship if she qualifies. They have an open house in May, and while it is about 8.5 hours away for us, if she gets the full ride a few plane trips a year would be very affordable, plus D loves riding horses and you can’t do better than Kentucky for that. Thanks for that recommendation, it really opened my eyes.

Yes, if she likes horses that sounds great. A visit in May sounds like a wonderful idea.

I had similar concerns about Temple’s neighborhood. And Philly is twice as far for us. But it might have been the most affordable option if Pitt hadn’t worked out.

@mommdc D just agreed to visit UK’s open house in May. The other NMF full ride schools are a good bit farther and most don’t have Pharm as an option. Incredible suggestion and exactly why I opened this thread, thanks again!!

Sure, no problem, glad if I could help. Let me know how the visit goes!

Hi - we are from this area too and my S. actually applied to quite a few of the schools you’ve mentioned so we just went down this road. A couple things - if your D gets Merit (sounds like she will!) you really have to be proactive researching how long that scholarship will last, especially for OSS, but even with some PA state schools. Many scholarships are for 4 years and will only be good for the first 2 years of PharmD program (Duquesne’s is 6 and Northeastern’s also extends into PharmD, but this may depend on which scholarship she gets) but there can be a BIG jump in tuition. We ran into this a couple of times. So even though the Merit seems awesome, be certain you are calculating all 6 years. Once she’s accepted I can’t recommend highly enough contacting the schools directly and meeting one on one with someone. Every school we’ve been to has been great and understands that these kids have choices. This has helped my S really get a “feel” for each school. After all, he’s the one that’s going to be going there, not us. Sounds like you and your D feel the same :slight_smile: UNC is a great program (obviously) but everyone and their brother (& sister!) will be applying to their PharmD program so check out their average incoming PCAT, college GPA, etc. - because after 2 years she will be reapplying. She will also most likely get offers to Honors Programs. (For ex: Univ. of South Carolina has the #1 (ranked) HC in the country and excellent scholarships for OS - the application is very in-depth but well worth it.) Some HC fit very well with PharmD (Duquesne) where others, not so much because of the fact she’ll be an undergrad for only 2 years (unless she wants a 4 year undergrad) Northeastern has an awesome co-op PharmD program (which my son loved!) but after Sophomore year you’re either in school or co-op, no summers off. This isn’t a big deal to him - he views the experience as a benefit, but again it really just depends on what she’s looking for - and she may not know until she takes a good look at what’s out there :slight_smile: - No fee for scoping out on-line :slight_smile: Last thing (I promise!) some schools award a BS after 5 years and some do not. You come out with PharmD or nothing. Which might be perfectly fine for her, just something to think about. Look at the programs, apply if they seem right, see if the cost is realistic, then visit and talk to people - she (and you) may be pleasantly surprised! Good Luck and enjoy the time together!

Thank you, AZcatsFan, you bring up some very good points. There seem to be three categories on the length of Undergrad Merit Aid where Pharm programs are involved that overlap PharmD school and the undergrad years. Originally we were aware that some cut off that Merit aid the moment you began P1 courses because they consider that grad/professional school, while most seem to give the undergrad award for a set number of years up to 4, so it covers 1 or 2 PharmD years depending on when you enter (D strongly wants a 2-4 or 0-6 program and should have enough AP credits to ensure that even at the ones that vary between 2 or 3+4). Now I have seen Duquesne come out with a possibility of six year Merit awards and wonder if any others will follow suit. We research this as much as possible online, but as you said, talking to the school in person and reading the details of any offer will be critical.

We were surprised by the PharmD only programs where you don’t get a Bachelor’s. Shenandoah offers a 3+4 where you get your B.S., but at 2+4 you don’t, though when pushed they agreed that with enough AP credits and maybe a summer course a 2+4 with a B.S. was possible. Since then I have seen it as I read between the lines at other schools. I think the issue at those schools is that they don’t offer a pharmacy B.S. and in a 2+4 it is hard for the student to complete a bio or chem degree. Truthfully, having a B.S. in pharmacy is not a big deal once one gets the advanced degree, but since my D has a strong interest in genetics and genomics, she would like to get a B.S. in Bio if possible.

So far she is interested, but ambivalent about HC programs and would have to balance the benefits and drawbacks in each case. Although D isn’t applying there, we had an early discussion with the admissions counselor at Wilkes who was amazingly frank and open about the admissions and aid decision process which gave us sort of the behind closed door view of things.

I like your comment about the feel of a school having to be right, I emphasize this to D over and over. Her pre-admit visits and research are all about feel, gathering information and learning all that she and Mom and I can learn. We started out with a simple spreadsheet just to keep track of school info and visits and the like, but each time we learn something new another column has to be added. I am glad you Son’s experience went well and love that so many of the people who have commented here were able to find the right school for fit, affordability and future options, it is very heartening to know that there are very good outcomes on the other end of this long and interesting road. (-:

We totally did the spreadsheets!! I love that :slight_smile: I would def recommend she looks at HC if it’s offered. My daughter is a Jr at George Mason(Crim major, Intel Analysis, Legal Studies & English minors) and has absolutely loved the Honors experience. She has friends from a variety of majors, the smaller seminars are wonderful & she said the class participation and discussion is amazing, plus you really get to know your professors. Not to mention the Honors housing is often excellent! Since your daughter will have to take certain “required” classes, the Honors seminars may appeal to her. And for sure it depends on the school - my son balanced HC school by school, even class by class. Some schools do have combo programs (NEU comes to mind - also at NEU she could look for coops that give experience in those areas) Have her ask when she visits the schools what they recmd as far as AP class transfers, Pitt suggested taking the sciences classes again at the college level, not “testing out” for example. It’s kind of nice to know the each program’s thoughts since they see a lot of undergrads.

Another thing about the Merit scholarships is there may be a different “tuition cost” for PharmD students on scholarships at OSS. I would never have thought of this this until I saw it. For example - if your daughter receives 4 years “in-state tuition” as part of her scholarship, this may mean: “In-State” tuition (as if you were a resident) for years 1 & 2 undergrad. Then, if accepted into PharmD, the last 2 years of scholarship are “Non-Resident Scholarship” NOT “In-State Tuition” & her last 2 years would be at the Nonresident cost. (even if your original scholarship included 4 years of in-state) This was the case at one of his OSS (a big SEC school). The dif. In cost for pharm was approx $8,000 a/year higher years P1 & P2 then approx 13,000/year P3 & 11,000 P4. (This is the DIFFERENCE in cost, not the cost of the program) The undergrad years the scholarship was great (21,000 difference a year) so when we were updating the spreadsheet :slight_smile: we planned 2 years of his PharmD at the in-state rate (per the scholarship wording) then P3 and P4 at OS rate. It wasn’t until he and I were on campus and I went to the Bursar’s office that I found the new info. They even had a hard time finding it. It didn’t make the school crazy expensive, just more on-par with his offers at Pitt (vs being a ton less expensive))

Really look at private schools, because with his Merit scholarships they have been right on par with Pitt, or less expensive. I realized I don’t know if I ever answered your ? about other schools - here are some he looked at (didn’t apply to them all)

Northeastern - this is a DIRECT entry, consider you part of the PharmD program from the start. No PCAT or reapply
Duquesne - no reapply, yes - PCAT
Pitt - even with cond. guar. there is reapply but u have a seat, still take PCAT
Rutgers ?
U Conn - 2, total reapply
U Rhode Island ?
UNC - 2, total reapply
U South Carolina - first 2 at SC, then PharmD at SC or Med Univ of SC (in Charleston) - 2, total reapply
St. Johns - ?
Temple - 2, total reapply
USP

*** all schools must interview before start PharmD

Feel free to direct message me with any more specifics!

The application and acceptance of AP credits definitely seems to vary as greatly as anything else among the schools we have looked at so far. Rutgers only allowed for AP courses to replace a maximum of 8 undergrad credits, and none in the sciences for a pharm major. Others seem more liberal, though it is not always easy at an early visit to get a truly straight answer. Shenandoah allowed AP to be used to replace Gen Ed classes, and science AP to count as electives, but like most others want you to take your sciences with your classmates. D is actually in agreement with that, she would like to get credit for the large number of AP credits he will have completed by then, but understands that having the same science base as her classmates is important, plus the courses should be easier having covered the subject matter in HS.

It is quite maddening to divine what schools mean by a full scholarship, especially OOS, and only Duquesne’s new program seems to cover the last two professional years. At Rutgers and UConn at least, and BTW, wow are graduate school tuitions rates harder to find on school websites than rates for undergrads, the OOS tuition cost for the P3 and P4 years are incredibly expensive.

D is very interested in dual degree programs, and one of the most interesting and course/time efficient ones is the PharmD/MPA program offered by Univ of Kentucky. D admittedly has a yearning to possibly some day go back and add a JD to her PharmD, but whether she does or not, the MPA would be a nice addition to her interest in policy and government as well as pharmacy. Thanks again for all of the info @AZcatsFan , it truly is invaluable!!!