@blossom: Great post. Had that talk w/ S18 and there’s no issue there. We’re now on to my own problem which is NEEDING to finding the bargain. He’s completely on board w/ several of the universities being of the same desirability to him. Honestly, if he had one specific clear favorite then it would be a different discussion. So give me options and I can’t stop fixating on trying to declare the “winner.” Point to make is that if it was all about price, he’d be applying to UC Merced and that’d be that. It is a safety for him. But, there are a LOT of cows, so it’s not up in the same tier. Not going to make him go there just to save money. $-)
West coast is a little crazy . . . was just out there and the real estate prices alone boggle my mind. If you had more geographic flexibility it would help but totally understand wanting to stay relatively close.
Colleges charge what the market will bear. The concept of sticker means more at some institutions than others. I remember being told at a number of top 30 schools (Northwestern was the first I recall) by financial aid folks that there was no need to worry about sticker price because no one pays it (very much a lie but whatever). Schools discount off their so called sticker price to get the kids they are seeking to get. If you can get them at full pay, no need to discount. If not, you provide discounts (in various forms of aid).
The question of whether any given college is worth it depends on a number of variables. Despite the sense you can get from reading threads here, colleges aren’t monolithic entities and their students are not monolithic either with all the same needs, goals, interests, etc. The answer as to whether any given school is worth it depends on a number of factors. The particular kid being the biggest one. What does your kid want. What are their life goals. What are they seeking to get out of a college. How much will it cost. What other options are available in terms of other schools, what will they cost, etc. And understand that there isn’t one right option. The notion if one right school for anyone is a myth.
As to the OP, there are a growing number of families who find that the full sticker price schools aren’t worth the cost. Like just about everything else in life its for varying reasons. Some do not have the money. Some have it but do not find value in full pay. Some offer to pay for grad school for their kids instead. Or to provide a large down payment for a house. Or an investment portfolio instead. A lot has to do with the particular kids, their goals, ambitions, etc. From the results I have seen, the kids have done very well.
And in the end, realize that there are no test cases when it comes to kids. No matter how well a given choice works out, you will never know if one or more other options at the time would have produced better results. Or it may well be the case that every other option at the time would have provided worse results. And that is even without getting into trying to quantify “better” or “worse.” More often all you can know is it would have been different.
Look at the info available (in whatever detail/amount works for you/your kid) and make the “best” decision you can. And move forward.
This is off the main topic, but since the subject came up, I think a clarification is warranted.
https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/2011/03/01/the-ivy-league-earnings-myth
I think it’s a good read–students that qualify for and are accepted by socalled elite schools do just as well as far as earnings even if they don’t attend the “elite” school. Something to keep in mind when deciding what a family thinks is worth paying for or not.
The second Krueger paper indicated that the pay differences went away when they took into account where the students applied, not just where they were accepted. Summary described at:
https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/revisiting-the-value-of-elite-colleges/
OP
I don’t know how average your kid really is or if he is CC average. If he wants a west coast education and doesn’t want to pay full price, check into Willamette U and see if he would qualify for a merit award there.
^^Good point, @chippedtoof – I missed that part. But I think it’s still important to remember that it’s just not “applying” that makes them equivalent–it’s being at acceptance levels (since as they often point out, Ivies etc. could make at least another whole class out of the top rejected students.)
Blossom. “I know exactly what I am looking for in terms of mileage, safety, repair record and maintenance, etc.” The implication is she researched. And that’s what more should do with colleges. No going blind. No walking on campus and announcing you found your dream.
I’m not sure the only complaint here is price. If a good school offers merit, run the NPC and see if any automatic merit comes up. Kid doesn’t hit that bar, rethink. But do this eyes wide open.
OP, maybe you are. I see glimpses of that.
But many idealize college. If one pulls their ideas of fit ftom USNews, they’re in the herd.
OP, if you can comfortably afford a couple of the places your son is interested in attending and to which he’s likely to be admitted then why do you care if you are getting a “deal” or not?
That’s where your post lost me. Blossom. Value does include cost and its overall impact, including emotionally. Marketeers know this. They offer even a small discount (free floor covers?) knowing people like to think that they got something back. Sales psych 101.
@blossom: Simple answer to your question…“personality defect!” I just can’t pay more than I feel is fair without kicking and screaming. :((
@lookingforward: BUSTED! Yeah, I’m a research junkie. Do it for a living, too. 
Every single time…someone has to trot out HPU, it’s “country club” amenities and the steak dinners…I did a campus tour at HPU and five other schools in the NC/SC corridor two weeks ago. I can tell you that the steak house at HPU is no different then the farm to table restaurant being touted at state universities Clemson and Auburn. Some universities have entirely student run coffee houses, Drexel has a really nice restaurant that they use as a training ground for it’s culinary students that is also available to it’s student body as a discount.
The HPU “steakhouse” ALSO serves ethnic foods. Why? Because at HPU they are all about “experiential” learning environments. The theory is, many of their students are going to be stepping into the business world when they graduate, they are going to be eating at “nice” restaurants with international clients, let’s take the opportunity to teach them how to order and eat some international foods that most Americans don’t eat on a regular basis, so that they don’t look like an @## during business functions. They also have some great hands on labs for communications students and a cadaver lab for medical related studies.
My oldest attends Marquette and they have a 50’s style diner for students. We visited
small Baldwin Wallace U and were treated to a dinner in the “special” faulty dining room that is also open to students. USC offers student reimbursement to take a professor to dinner. Geesh even “back in the day” my husband’s Alma Mater, Case Western, had a fancy restaurant for students called “That Place on Belflower”. Frankly the resort style pool at HPU was small, even tiny, in comparison to the resort style pool that we saw at a state university, Stephen F Austin, in Texas. HPU’s dorms are not all that much more special than the modern dorms we have seen at Drexel or Auburn. If we want to point out the lavish digs at some schools, you need look no further than the gigantic football stadiums at schools like A&M and other SEC schools, yet no one seems to find fault with that outlandish spending. The difference is that HPU has built the bulk of their campus in the past 10 years, so yes, of course, it is all looking a bit more spiffy and modern in comparison to College of Charleston and other older schools. Maybe HPU is betting on a Field of Dreams, “If you build it they will come”. Maybe it will work, maybe it won’t. Sure it’s academics needs to catch up to it’s outward appearance, but that not going to happen overnight.
So, can we please stop with the bashing on HPU, citing them as the quintessential school for special snowflakes? HPU is not doing anything all that much different than 100s of other state run and private universities. And yes things have changed on campus the 50 years since grandpa was at school and even significantly since mom and dad attended college in the 1980’s. And thank goodness. Change is inevitable, it is necessary and it comes at a price even at the lowliest community college. If
@garland thanks for that link. From purely anecdotal experience, it pans out among my friends- many of whom were accepted to U of M(ichigan) but since the economy crashed my senior year, they were suddenly going to MSU or our local directional because the money was no longer there.
Now that we’re several years out, the students who were accepted but didn’t go to U of M are on par with those who did go.
West Point. It’s free (if you don’t count the opportunity cost of the years your kid will owe the military after graduating).
Of course I “get” not wanting to pay more than something is worth. And of course it’s your money- and your kid. I’m just pointing out that “Value” isn’t just relative to what either costs more or less-- there can indeed be an intrinsic value in a kid getting a college education which meets his or her educational goals. And the folks I know in real life who have had thousands of conversations similar to the one you’ve started here, seem to share one thing- paying less is a virtue (in and of itself) even if means “getting less”. And frankly- I’m usually ok with that. Except for my car (which I plan to keep for 15 years, not my usual 13 or so) and my kids education where we paid sticker- despite having cheaper alternatives- and I think we got great value.
For my engineering/physics kid, who ended up at MIT, I knocked about 10 private U’s off the list. Their resources, academic reputations, clout in the science world, etc. were all inferior to a state flagship (not our own, but a neighboring state). I wouldn’t have paid full freight at a less strong university when a state school punched above its weight in the relevant disciplines.
So OP- I heartily endorse your POV- but just paying less than sticker is not a strategy. Optimizing your kid’s intellectual needs while paying what you can afford- that’s a strategy.
What does your kid want to study, how can a particular college fill those academic needs better or worse than another? I’d start there.
Or no. Your money, your kid. But to answer your unstated question- what kind of moron pays full price- the answer is Us- and we are happy we did. We started saving early, we sacrificed other things tremendously in order to do it, and we don’t regret it. And our kids took their schooling very, very seriously which made paying full price not quite as bizarre as it might have been for confirmed coupon clippers like us.
@blossom: And that hits the nail on the head! We, too, have much cheaper options but these more expensive schools are more desirable to S18 for all the correct reasons. So we’re willing to pay more. However, no single school is clearly a better fit than several others (at least not yet.) This, then, leaves me looking for coupons to clip (love that!)
You know, what started all this was the lame attempt at LMU to “sell” me on their school. They barely put any effort into it and basically just winged it. Come on man! At least tell me I’m pretty before…well, you know the saying! :O)
Anyway, that got me a little po’d and you know where that led. But it also made me reflect more deeply on what these schools are really offering, and are they just taking our paying whatever they want for granted? It kinda, sorta, feels like YES just a lot-a-bit.
So many have asked what I mean by average: S18 3.6 uwgpa. 570E, 550M SAT. 2 CC courses over last 2 summers. Food truck 2x week 8th and 9th grade, and a couple of clubs. ASD (think Aspergers) and didn’t talk (and I mean at all) until 5th grade. Has had zero help from us since 9th grade, other than we provide the opportunity. The kid takes it and thrives on his own. Won’t qualify for any services and doesn’t want them, mostly affects his social interactions, so he’ll do much better in the smaller school environment. (Can you tell how proud I am?) And we have too much money and assets to qualify for any help, but still live in the Bay Area. So, well you know.
I’m not having a problem paying for those schools he’ll do great in. However, there are several schools that fit, but don’t distinguish themselves from the others. And now I hear about essays about “Tell us why you want to come here.” That sets me OFF!!! How about you tell me what you can do for my son?
So, my thinking turns to value, which others have called bang-for-the-buck and that is exactly right, for me. I want the MOST bang-for-the-buck and since these schools are so similar, though excellent, why shouldn’t I expect them to compete for my son’s dollars? These aren’t the Ivy’s. They’re middle tier excellent schools that have to fill their classes with new students. And the Not-For-Profits (oxymoron) don’t even pay taxes! You’re telling me they have too charge the same? This is rigged! I’m, frankly, a little stunned that there’s not even more outrage. (Insert picture of High Horse, if there were one)
Anyway, I’m kinda kidding but sorta serious all at the same time and I really love that this CC community allows somewhere to go and discuss this (ie “vent”) where all actually understand (even if don’t agree completely) with the sentiment.
Thanks, all!
Just read twoinanddone’s comment. I can’t deny that a “professor teaching at LMU wants to be paid the same as professors at Harvard and Yale.” This just doesn’t happen, though. If you live near a university or another place that has a really good library, you can get the Chronicle of Higher Education and look at the faculty salary data. Professors in the med school, the law school, and the business school do quite well, relative to other faculty (generally speaking) and more so if they are at a top-ranked school. Faculty in engineering come next, typically. Faculty in the sciences and some other areas are reasonably well-paid, still with some variation depending on the quality of the school. Faculty in the liberal arts may have the widest separation between Harvard & Yale on the one hand, and LAC’s or other private colleges on the other (since the LAC’s don’t have med school or law school faculty).
@rwmannesq Fwiw, I think the answers to your questions are rather simple and that the complicated responses come from those who have the money to make the decisions complicated.
We have kids who fit the “elite” criteria…test scores, academics, and achievements. That is who they are, nothing we did. (We are the antithesis of “tiger parents.”) They have siblings who are more along the lines of no outstanding ECs, just nice kids who do your avg everyday thing.
Guess what, my competitive kids don’t have the option of expensive schools bc we refuse to take out loans or go beyond our defined budget (which is a fraction of what colleges expect us to pay.) No tears shed. No feeling like somehow they are suffering and having their intellectual lives starved. They go to school on scholarships and thrive and excel.
My other kids go where their “real selves” are the norm…with limited $$ they can attend local schools, cheap schools, or a CC. They still seem to end up with good careers regardless.
If your child can create a list of criteria that they want and expect to be fulfilled and you are onboard, then why does college cost so much? Bc you are providing the option that it can.
@rwmannesq re#74 - you have it the nail on the head. Yes, average stat kids from upper middle class families are expected to do exactly that…pay the full sticker price. Why no one here on CC is ever willing to admit that is beyond me. It’s an if you want to play with “smart” kids we will let ya, only you have to pay for all the toys and the snacks. It’s pay to play. Not exactly fair, especially since the average kid is just as likely to graduate and be a meaningful contributor to the community as the smart kid or the economically disadvantaged kids (neither of which are, usually, paying full price).
The arguments I find most common on CC being: 1. Your average stat, upper middle class, kid should be grateful they can afford to go to school, and extra grateful because, generally, it is any school they choose (that will except them). 2. Your average stat kid had all the opportunity to be more successful academically, why didn’t they work harder? It’s probably because they are a “special snowflake” and their parents think they deserve more than what they actually earned. (You know because it is not normal for a parent to want their kid to attend the best school possible -academically, socially, financially - one that their kid will be successful and will help them to get a leg up in the world when they graduate).
In the end, it is what it is. My Momma always said “life isn’t fair”. I hear your complaint, I echo the sentiments. You will find precious little sympathy on CC.
@Mom2aphysicsgeek: And the prize goes to you. Thank you for saying perfectly what I’m feeling, and so succinctly! =D>
That is exactly what I’ve been grappling with and trying to express. Even though I can (at this stage of life) “afford” to pay what they’re asking, my instinct is to tell them to drop dead. When I went to school, it was to a UC and we barely were able to afford that, and I worked, too! 8 years earlier and my family was still on food stamps. This feels wrong to me and the answer really is simple. Just because I can afford their BS doesn’t mean I should. I just need to have a talk with the wife and convince her (btw she’s an immigrant from Nicaragua that came alone with nothing but the shirt on her back just after the war.) Wish me luck.
@labegg: I definitely see some of that here but I have to admit that it’s great to have a place to work out my self-imposed dilemmas and be faced with all the different viewpoints so that I can figure it all out. And your Momma was a smart cookie.