Anyone else still not decided on where to SIR?

Transfer Students UC Transfers
1

Just several more days…but I definitely want to arrive to a decision before then with the checklist to do as well. I figured I’d post this to get others’ perspectives and see if maybe we can help each other out in arriving at a decision.

So, who else is in this spot? Which schools are you choosing between/among (and for what major(s))? And what’s keeping you?

For me: choosing between LA and Cal as a math major. Pretty much everyone is telling me to go to Berkeley because they are superior in math/hard sciences, are more internationally recognized/higher prestige, etc etc. But I’m not ready to rule UCLA out just because of rankings–I’ll just list out my reasons like this (you don’t have to follow my format, I just feel it’s easier to organize my deliberations this way):

  • Why Berkeley: the name, amazing math dep., I loved the overall feeling/atmosphere when I visited, also I'd love to go to norcal (socal native) and I enjoy the weather up there more (trivial but just listing)
  • Why not Berkeley: difficulty (not that it's much different from LA but I feel the students would be more competitive and thus the curves harsher). Not big on semester system (even if they do get a better year-round schedule)
  • Why UCLA: also loved the school! I don't mind seeing people everywhere. I also enjoy quarter system set up (I like having more leeway to take classes), plus I like my major curriculum better (more flexibility)
  • Why not UCLA: dislike socal weather (not a sun-guy!). also, I'm not really considering grad school so undergrad is endgame (which may be surprising for math but don't need grad school for what I want to do)

Just to note FA is pretty much the same (any difference is negligible). I feel like I’d succeed more at UCLA and enjoy their curriculum/requirements more (after looking at what courses I have to take for each school). I also think that those rankings and prestige people keep bringing up apply mainly for grad school–undergrad there’s hardly any difference right? (just need confirmation). Sometimes I swing to Cal and sometimes back to LA but most times just split. I don’t know if I should give up Cal just because I think I’ll “do better” at LA (you never know), plus the fact that undergrad is my endgame keeps me kinda tethered to Cal. But I also don’t know if I should give up LA just because Cal has bigger name (like I said it’s marginal/negligible).

Well those are my fleshed out reasons, anyone kind enough/who has spare time do weigh in? And if you’re in my spot do post your deliberations/reasoning! Maybe I/we will get something out of hearing each other’s thought process. The deadline’s coming up!

2

Everything you said makes sense. Only thing I will add is while quarter sounds good, in theory, just remember three sets of midterms and three sets of finals, and they come up pretty quickly, as opposed to just two sets spaced further out.

3

I finally decided on UCLA over Berkeley because I liked my majors classes more and liked the opportunities I’d have at UCLA vs. Berkeley. And to add about the quarter vs semester, semester midterms and finals are HARD (at least what I’ve seen with my friends) Like, oh my gosh I cannot do well here, hard. They have so much more information in each class.

4

Between UCLA and Cal for me as well: applied math major at Berkeley and Financial Math at UCLA.

I feel like I’ve flip-flopped so many times between the two. For what it’s worth I was a heavy UCLA lean in the beginning, but after two visits to Cal started leaning towards Berkeley. I almost SIRed a couple of weeks ago until I did some intense comparisons of the schedules of past/present and a friend allowed me to go through the closed group pages on Facebook specifically for Berkeley email holders. Now leaning toward UCLA again.

I’m significantly more interested in the “applied” part of math and prefer to avoid heavy-proof based courses. At Berkeley, even the “applied” math courses are proof-heavy and the real “applied” stuff is outsourced to statistics and other departments. While this is normally not a problem, the underlying issue is that, at Cal, majors are given registration priority over non-majors (via registration restrictions) in capped departments which makes getting most of those “applied” classes much harder to get into.

To share my experience after talking to advisers at Berkeley: upper division Econ courses as a non-major at Berkeley are practically impossible for instance. Some classes I wanted to take (Econ 136, Econ 140, Econ 141) are historically completely full and waitlists normally are in the 15+ range. As a non-major, I basically have no chance to add such classes until my last semester(s) or rely on the department to open another section which historically has not happened.

I even considered declaring a second major just for the sake of getting enrollment priority but that was fairly futile as well. For instance, to declare econ you have to take Econ 100A or 100B or Econ 101A or 101B in the first semester and looking at the fall schedule points to all four courses being completely full (the only “available” spots are saved for designated pre-majors) with some waitlists of 20+. The first transfer orientation date is June 8th meaning none of the incoming econ transfers have yet to even register and they are already full! Unfortunately, the other courses I’m interested in taking as an applied math track (IEOR, UGBA, Comp Sci) aren’t much better. It also doesn’t help that the statistics department at Berkeley is fairly gloomy.

What it boils down to for me is that at Cal, despite the “freedom” it offers with it’s BA degree, I would be fighting uphill to get the courses I want and realistically would have to settle with taking courses I would not fully 100% enjoy.

In comparison, UCLA’s major requirements (at least for Financial Math) is fairly split down the line with half being proof heavy and the other half dealing with “practical” computations and applications so I wouldn’t need too many classes outside the department: and even when I do, there is a lot less red tape to go through. This is where the quarter system shines; we can use the “extra” registration cycles to get the classes that are truly wanted. Additionally it gives more chances to avoid the really “challenging” professors (Chayes, Greene, Garnett at UCLA and Wodzicki, Givental, Vojta at Cal) if desired.

As far as housing, I’ve registered for a Berkeley Co-Op in early March so I have a pretty good chance at getting into one and that would make boarding costs much cheaper in comparison to UCLA. Otherwise, I think, as a transfer, De Neves GH is significantly better than the Wada / Martinez experience and Units 1 & 3 at Cal.

So to simplify my current POV:

UCB (Applied Math)
+++ - Proximity to Silicon Valley / SF Financial District
+++ - Better connections to “Big 4”
++ - Tight knit minority student organizations
++ - Better REU placements
++ - More housing options
++ - Accessible Business School (Haas)

  •   -     Sweater weather

  •   -     Great running trails

  •   -     More interesting filler classes (DeCals)

  •    -     General pretentiousness

  •    -     Dangerous at night

– - Severe grade deflation (with less opportunities to take GPA boosters)
– - Early transfer orientation spots are full
– - Too many “research first” professors
– - Not as transfer friendly
— - Heavy competition for research spots
— - Proof-heavy classes
— - Administrative red tape

UCLA (Financial Math)
+++ - Happier students
+++ - Better actuary placements
+++ - Derivatives Markets and other MBA-type classes are offered at undergrad level
++ - Stronger math communities (from what I’ve seen)
++ - More accessible student support services
++ - More transfer friendly policies

  •   -     Good group of current visiting faculty that teach

  •   -     Safer campus

  •   -     Significantly better food

  •   -     Quarter system fits international calendars better (for study abroad)

  •   -     Spring Sing!

  •    -     Not a lot of student diversity in math courses (Bluntly speaking: it's all Asians)

  •    -     Off-campus football stadium

– - Rift between Math and Stats departments
– - College “Bubble” / Not a real world experience
– - Will probably be more expensive for me in long run
— - LA Traffic
— - No access to Business School (Anderson)

5

@ActuaryorBust last year there was a lot of gnashing of teeth between UCB and UCLA across the board. I can see for math, that there are some substantial negatives (but also substantial gains). I follow your logic.

BTW, could you let me know the FB page so I can give it to my daughter? Thx.

6

@lindyk8 thanks for the response–yeah, I know that quarter system will be quite an adjustment and the fast-pacedness is a drawback, but everything else about it appeals to me (more leeway for classes, “smaller” finals so to speak compared to semester). I will admit that semester has the better year-round schedule (month-long winter break, end in mid-may). Oh well, it’s just for two years!

@onmyway8 can I ask what’s your major?

@ActuaryorBust thank you for your extensive response! Wow, a lot of the things you mentioned mirrors my own thoughts as well. I also loved your +/- system, really helped with differentiating between priorities. You’ve done so much research and I’m grateful you took the time to type all of that up. For the record, I was Cal-leaning all year, but these past few weeks I’ve swung towards LA, but I keep flipflopping like you.

But yeah, just like you said, I think what pushes me away from Berkeley is the proof/abstract-heavy core classes you have to take for applied math. Berkeley doesn’t differentiate their pure and applied math as much as LA does; in fact the core upper divs are identical (and you need 1 more for applied). What draws me toward LA is the flexibility of the major, in part due to the quarter system, as well as higher number of applied/practical classes you get to take. Not that I’m repulsed by proofs (shouldn’t be a math major if that’s the case), but there is a reason why I want to go into applied rather than pure math. In both cases you’ll have to deal with proof-y courses, but much more so in Berkeley than in LA. And because of LA’s more applied set up + quarter system, I think I’ll enjoy myself more (academically) in LA. And even if actuaries don’t need grad school, GPA is still important to employers (which I think will be higher in LA than in Berkeley).

Other than that, everything else about Berkeley appeals to me, the fact that it’s up in norcal, nearby SF/Silicon Valley–but in the end, I think the academic reasons ought to trump the others, and you can’t make a wrong choice. (But maybe you can make a /better/ choice? that’s why I’m so hesitant and undecided haha).

7

I’m a communication studies major with an entrepreneurship minor, so super different. :slight_smile:

8

I feel like Applied Math will be more flexible than Financial Math, but if you certainly want to do finances than that’s a moot point.

9

I know both Cal and UCLA are adamant about major =/= career and from looking at college exit surveys I found fairly equal placements between both financial math and applied math. It seems that, at least for applied math tracks (and stats really), the lines are so blurred between majors that most people end up in similar jobs regardless of the major on their diplomas. What really matters is the classes and concentrations you pick and the amount of exposure you have to certain topics and applications rather than the major itself. (Hence my lean toward UCLA) There is also the minor issue of a B.S. at UCLA vs a B.A. at Cal which might be a deal breaker depending on what your post-graduate plans are.

Also for those still undecided some other good resources are: Berkeleytime, Telebears Oracle, Schedulebuilder, and Bruinwalk.

@bearly No worries. It’s definitely a tough choice and we are absolutely deserving (and lucky) to have the choice in the first place. I wish you the best!

@lindyk8 The Facebook group can be found here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/631097886985088/

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@onmyway8 oh I see, that’s cool! Thanks for your responses nonetheless, they definitely contributed/helped!

@anikom15 maybe degree-wise it looks like that, but both majors (for UCLA at least) offer a lot of leeway on what classes you take (again probably a result of quarter system), at least compared to Berkeley.

@ActuaryorBust thank you! Same to you too!

Also, regarding the major courses thing and career, that’s also a contributing factor to why I want to go to LA. Berkeley has the name in math, no doubt, but it’s not like I’m pursuing pure math with an intention of doing research or getting a PhD or something. The fact that LA’s major is a lot more flexible and classes more applied was kinda the tipping factor for me.

And for the record I think I’m 95% converted to LA. Just need some time to reflect on everything I’ve thought about before finalizing, but I’ll likely be SIR’ing there within the next day. Good luck on your decision (and to anyone else who’s reading this!)

11

go to Cal.

12

because I just picked UCLA over Cal and that way if you pick Cal over UCLA at least one of us will have made the right decision.

13

@dannyn94 can you give any rationale why? I’m still open to discussion/persuasion (have not SIR’d yet). If you don’t mind my asking these q’s:

  • What's your major?
  • What made you go to LA in the first place?
  • Why do you regret it/why do you wish you went to Cal?

Thanks!

14

@Bearly I was admitted to ucla for psychology, although I’m going to be taking classes more in the neuroscience/biopsyc/cog sci areas, and I intend to double major in philosophy.

I chose LA over Cal because, well for one I was admitted into the college of letters and science at Cal, and the only majors I could declare were philosophy and economics due to prerequisite issues for the psyc/cog sci program, but I got admitted to UCLA as pre-psychology, which is a world-renowned program. Also, the fact that UCLA runs on the quarter system will facilitate my endeavors towards a double major.

I kind of regret it because Cal is right next to silicon valley, and there cognitive science program is world-renowned, as is there philosophy program. Hopefully I’ll be there one day for graduate study, but we’ll see.

I should note that I was a rare case. Most people who visit both UCLA and Cal once each, let alone multiple times each, seem to really enjoy the atmosphere of one school and seem to absolutely dread the other, but I truly enjoyed both and since I’ve been living in northern california my entire life I thought it’d be cool for a change. So if you’ve visited both, you should go to the school where you 1. enjoyed the campus vibe/atmosphere more and 2. could see yourself enjoying your time, whether it be going to class/studying/doing research, participating in social activities around campus, or just enjoying the day around the campus/area.

15

Goodluck! And here’s some frequent advice that I was getting throughout the process of choosing a school: if your hardest choice in life right now is picking between UCLA and Cal, you’re in good hands. In other words, there’s no such thing as a bad choice; both schools are fantastic, so you should go with the one that feels better for you.

16

@dannyn94 ah thanks for your supportive answer! I thought that in your original post (above mine) you were saying that choosing LA over Cal would be a mistake for me, but I see you were just describing your experience and are saying I should choose wherever I really think I’ll enjoy. I think it’ll be LA for me then =)

17

The semester system is much different at a UC than in community college. For one thing, we get a dead week at Berkeley to prepare for finals. UCLA does not. Also, you can take many classes during a semester as you could in a quarter system.

Yeah it’s hella competitive sometimes but why would you want to choose the easy way out (not that UCLA is easier though…maybe less competitive)? I think it prepares you for life a lot after college.

Also since you said grad school is not your goal, what are you planning on doing after undergrad? Business? Nonprofit work?

I left SoCal to go to Berkeley and I’ll agree with you that Bay Area weather is better…you actually experience the seasons!!

18

@ocnative I have heard about the dead week of studying, but quarter system still appeals to me more because of the higher rate of taking classes. I mean you get 6 quarters vs 4 semesters (let’s say 2 years til grad). Even though the units are the same, you really do get more leeway in classes! But this is not my selling point, it was mainly the major thing more for me, that I’d enjoy my major at LA a lot more than at Berkeley.

Yeah, for my intended line of work, actuarial science, you don’t need grad school (just a matter of passing exams). I know that the biggest factors (let’s say to get interviewed) are:
+++ GPA
+++ Exams passed
++ Internship/experience

  • Undergrad school prestige

School prestige does appeal to employers to an extent, but not that much–GPA (and exams) trump the other factors. Maybe I might be selling myself short, but I think the difference between LA and Cal is just marginal, and the GPA thing…that coupled with the fact that I just like my major at LA better than at Cal tipped me. As much as I love north cal weather & area–I’m going with where I think I’ll succeed the most + enjoy myself! :E

If only I could switch the campuses with one another, my choice would have been made long ago. Then again they wouldn’t really be Berkeley and LA anymore would they haha. And no school is the perfect fit anyway. (though I admit a little sad cause Golden Bears has a nicer/cooler ring to it than Bruins (Baby Bears))

19

Cal is one of the top schools in the nation… nuff said

20

^And UCLA is not?