<p>Ok here is the deal.</p>
<p>When I read through grad school admissions threads in this forum, every applicant says they will get awesome LORs from PIs who simply adore them. That sure as hell aint the case for me.</p>
<p>I'm a 3rd yr Genetics and Microbio student at UofT.</p>
<p>I did a summer research project last summer that was very productive although it sort of hit some roadbumps due to an overzealous lab tech who can't mind his own business. Anyways, I feel I did a good job but my P.I. was one of those individuals you can't read at all. I don't have any idea what he thinks of me. I was a summer student who worked in the lab and did a solid job and nothing more. I made a few mistakes now and again but that was to be expected considering it was my first research project. I'm one of those quiet types who chooses to mind his own business. I was pretty friendly but not very social in the sense that I didn't really get to know any of the lab members outside of my P.I. other than the other undergrad I worked with and one of the other lab techs.</p>
<p>So I left that lab during the beginning of the school year and switched into a virology laboratory. I did this even though I knew nothing about viruses. Anyways, I'm working with this one lab tech whos a really nice and helpful guy who can be very incoherent and unorganized. This is to my disadvantage because it makes learning from him a real challenge. Anyways, my new P.I. is the same. He stays in his office all the time and rarely leaves. It is a really small lab (my old lab had 15+ ppl and 2 PIs while this lab has 5 ppl including the PI) so not talking much is sort of strange. He is even quieter than myself--which is saying alot.</p>
<p>The thing is I will have these two people write me LORs when apply for grad school next year and I don't really know what they think of me.</p>
<p>g2g finish this post later.</p>
<p>I know you’re not done with your post yet, but…</p>
<p>Here’s an idea - can you approach them now and ask their guidance on entering a graduate program? Make appointments (if needed) to sit and talk with them, in person. This way you’ll be able to gauge their honest reaction. Once they notice your sincere desire to pursue further studies, they may have some valuable advice to give you. Heck, it may even change their opinions about you - if they ever were negative to begin with.</p>
<p>Also, when it’s time to actually ask for LORs, go ahead and be frank. Ask them if they would be able to write you strong LORs. I don’t think anyone has the the time or ill will to lie and falsely promise you strong LOR.</p>
<p>That is a very good idea. I’m pretty embarassed that I didn’t think about that.</p>
<p>Oh and my final comment was that my current PI required a reference prior to taking me on in his lab and my first PI was that contact. Obviously it couldn’t have been a bad reference if I got into this lab but that doesn’t really say much.</p>
<p>I haven’t been in the lab long enuff for my current PI to have any opinions on me.</p>
<p>The only thing he may be aware of is the fact that I’m doing extremely poorly in the virology course that he coordinates. But I doubt he cares about that since that course isn’t over—not by a long shot.</p>
<p>I agree with PatchesNBrownie’s post. Ask each of them - preferably in person in a one-on-one setting - if they can write a strong LOR to support your application to graduate school. They will let you know if they can - or can’t - provide such a LOR. If they only state that they will write a fair LOR based on their interactions with you, I would, personally, advise against using them as a reference. If at all possible, only use references from profs who state that they are willing to write a strong LOR to support your application.</p>
<p>You also mention that you have had somewhat limited interactions with your PIs. It may be helpful to provide your PIs with a copy of your statement of purpose/personal statement, transcript, and up-to-date CV when you ask them for a LOR. You will need to write a convincing statement of purpose/personal statement for your grad school applications anyway, and a good statement of purpose can help your PIs get to know you better and hence be able to write a better LOR for you.</p>
<p>Well the thing with that is I need 3 LORs and these 2 and my 4th yr researchproj PI will be those 3 LORs. I have no other possible LORs.</p>
<p>You don’t have to have all your LORs be from your research advisers. If you have at least one strong LOR from a research adviser, my impression is it won’t hurt if you use course professors who have had at least some personal interaction with you (and in whose courses you did very well) as your other references.</p>
<p>Nope. That doesn’t cut it for me-- I’d rather work in a lab for another year and get more references than to use someone not involved in my research as a LOR.</p>
<p>OK, after all it’s your call. I was merely providing my personal opinion based on my (and my friends’) experiences.</p>
<p>Just a bit of info. Ive worked in a admission office before. The order the committie looked at things were as follows</p>
<p>Tests
Resume
Personal Statement
Financial
Transcript
LOR
other.</p>
<p>Now this was just at 1 school, and they did emphasize LOR all to much. In fact you would never believe how many professors send LOR with students names spelled wrong and other words spelled wrong.</p>
<p>I realize that you want to get a third recommendation from a PI, but don’t you think it looks better to an admissions committee to spend longer periods in fewer labs? It demonstrates that you’re dedicated, it gives you more time to get substantial work done and published/presented, and it would allow for your current PI to write you a better recommendation. I had two PI recommendations (undergrad and post-bac) and one from a post-doc in my current lab, and that was more than sufficient.</p>
<p>I agree TWOJumbo. Committees will not necessarily expect people to have recommendations from three separate PIs.</p>
<p>Also re Dr.Horse’s post: I think this varies between programs and schools. I don’t think - and this is based on reliable info - every school treats GRE scores that importantly.</p>
<p>I totally agree with TWOjumbo and aceflyer - I also personally only had 2 PIs (one undergrad thesis mentor, one at post-college work) and 1 postdoc (at post-college work) write LORs for me and hoenstly, it has worked out for me very, very well.</p>
<p>Now, combine these LORs with strong GRE scores and hopefully good GPA as well, and you’re good to go!! :)</p>
<p>Aceflyer, I think Dr. Horse had the order from least important to most important, given the comment “they did emphasize LOR all to[o] much”, which wouldn’t be the case if LORs were the least important.</p>
<p>No the order was from Most Important to Least. That would be the stack of papers the admissions committee would get in that order.</p>
<p>Wow, that’s surprising to be frank. Do you know if the committee actually compared applicants on the basis of GRE scores, or were the GRE scores just used as a preliminary filter (e.g., verbal < 500, or verbal + quant < 1200) for initial ‘binning’ of applicants?</p>
<p>Most of the domestic students would always be seen by the committee, though all international students world be sorted by TOEFL. This was for a selective program, so we didnt get that many apps. </p>
<p>I dont really know more than that, i just sorted applications and was told how to sort them and prepare them for the committee. I cant say its the same for all schools either.</p>
<p>Just FYI about only wanting LORs from people involved in your research… adcoms aren’t just looking for how good you are at science. Personality checks are one of the reasons they conduct interviews. While your limited interactions with your PIs can still get you a good letter because you did good work, they probably can’t convey the enthusiasm you have as well as a professor that knows you a bit better on a personal level. My letters came from the PI I worked with, another PI in my department I was friendly with, and a faculty from undergrad that taught one of my courses… so basically one could testify for my research abilities, one observed research, and one dedication to science. Just a thought so you don’t necessarily have to get yourself into another lab to get your 3rd letter :)</p>
<p>I agree entirely, sydneya. However, the OP has already stated:</p>
<p>“Nope. That doesn’t cut it for me-- I’d rather work in a lab for another year and get more references than to use someone not involved in my research as a LOR.”</p>
<p>So, Dr. Horse: how could they emphasize the LORs too much if they’re the least important?</p>
<p>Well I don’t really care for getting to know any of the professors in my department. I don’t particularly like my dept. to begin with and I sure as hell wouldn’t waste my time making small talk with some random proffs. </p>
<p>There have been 2 or 3 proffs who have taught a course I’ve taken that I would really like to work with. One of them is a huge StarWars fan so that is a definite plus.</p>
<p>Apparently the P.I. I am currently working for is known by more than a handful of people to be a jackass. He doesn’t seem friendly and keeps to himself and can appear a bit stern at times. I can handle people who aren’t particularly upbeat as long as they’re passionate abt what they do. But this dude I’m working for seems lifeless, dull, and a bit anal. But i’ll keep an open mind.</p>