Anyone feel like commiserating on science grad school admissions?

<p>So I'll start with the intro: I'm a going-to-be senior at MIT, double-major in biology and neuroscience, and looking to apply to PhD programs in either field for admission in fall 2006.</p>

<p>That said, I'm a little annoyed about the graduate school process. When I applied for undergrad, I felt like I had an idea of where I fit in given my GPA, ECs, and test scores... everything seemed very quantitative and I knew I had good numbers, so I applied to good schools.</p>

<p>For grad school, I feel like admission is now based on unquantifiable characteristics, the most important being, of course, research. I have a strong record of undergraduate research, but I still don't know where that puts me in terms of my application as a whole. I have no clue where to apply, because I don't know what schools are a sure thing and which are reaches.</p>

<p>If anyone else out there feels like complaining about this, chime in! Grad school applications make me grouchy.</p>

<p>It's SO difficult in that sense, I agree,</p>

<pre><code> My first year of applications I had almost received a guaranteed "you're in" from my first choice and then for some mysterious reason I didn't get in. They're very difficult to quantify and more difficult to "feel out". Research really is the most important thing. If you have extensive research experience (in the sciences) and a great letter of rec from a scientist in your lab it'll make up for most other deficincies . I know plenty of people who got into top 5 programs because of research (lower gpa's 3.0-3.3 and average GRE's).
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<p>Cheers</p>

<p>Grades, research, and recommendations are all equally important... and far, far behind is the GRE.
Do you have any close relationships with any professors? Who will be writing your letters? These are the people to sit down with and discuss your chances... Also it's good to talk with fellow students from a year ahead of you, or even the first year grad students...</p>

<p>Yes, my research supervisor (whose lab I've worked in part-time during term and full-time during all breaks for the past two years) will be writing one letter, and another professor in the department (I took one of his lab classes) will be writing another. I feel comfortable sitting down and talking with either of them.</p>

<p>Another thing I have going for me is that I'll definitely have authorship on an abstract by the time I apply (Society for Neuroscience conference), and hopefully authorship on a paper (we submitted it last week).</p>

<p>I guess I just feel sort of underinformed about everything because I'm one of very few in my major to go on to graduate school in biology. There are a million premeds, and a hefty number who want to do BME, but few people want to go on to straight biology research.</p>

<p>I actually ended up applying to a professional graduate degree program, instead of the research PhD track for now, but I met with several professors to discuss options. </p>

<p>My Biochem professor was most helpful in outlining exactly what they look for when applying to science programs at top universities. He said as soon as they get an application he takes out the transcript, and marks it up. He circles anything below a B and assesses the importance of the subject. If the low grade is in something fairly "insignificant", say an English class, then he overlooks it. If it's something like Organic Chemistry, that's bad. </p>

<p>After the transcript he said they always look at letters of recommendation, as previous posts have also suggested, he definitely made it clear that these were what can make and break candidates. He said what really stands out are applicants who have letters of recommendation from professors they've really gotten to know. According to him, the average applicant submits a letter of recommendation from a professor they worked with in a lab, a professor they got an A from, and their advisor. An exceptional candidate is able to submit a recommendation from a professor who actually knows them well, which makes for a more powerful recommendation.</p>

<p>He also said to be careful about extra curriculars. Keep in mind that these programs are looking for exceptional students with strong interests in research. He actually told us that they were on the fence about accepting this one applicant to their program, but they eventually decided not to because they noticed how many athletic awards he had listed on his application (which in my opinion is sort of bizarre because the applications usually specifically ask you to list any awards or honors). Apparently they were worried his real interest was at the gym, not in the lab.</p>

<p>The standard GREs aren't terribly difficult to prepare for, so he recommended to do well on them- it couldn't hurt. </p>

<p>Also, he insisted the essay was not very important.</p>

<p>If you're coming from MIT, I would think that would give you a leg up. They'll know your coursework isn't exactly a walk in the park. Just take your time in preparing applications, and schedule for the application process accordingly when applying. I'm sure you'll get lots of offers!</p>

<p>Best of luck</p>

<p>Thanks very much for that response -- I really appreciate getting to know the viewpoint of the people who will be actually making the decisions.</p>

<p>I do understand the extracurricular thing. I mean, honestly, we all know that science grad programs are more or less looking for slave labor ;) Fortunately for me (and unfortunately for my social life), the lab I work in has a very workaholic philosophy, so I've pretty much dedicated my life to school and lab for the past two years.</p>

<p>What do you all think about submitting a rec from an NIH lab chief (I worked there the summer after freshman year). I'm concerned that it won't be as personal a recommendation as one I could get from another lab instructor I've had, but the lab instructor is just an instructor and not a professor. Thoughts?</p>

<p>A good way to narrow down the search is to go through department websites and see if you like any of the faculty's research. If anyone's work really interests, note it down and email the prof with some questions or for more information. If you notice a school has multiple profs with research you would like to do, then consider applying there. Ask your advisor for suggestions where to apply.</p>

<p>I'm meeting with my advisor sometime next week to try and definitively decide on programs. I also had a very encouraging heart-to-heart with my postdoc supervisor today which made me feel a lot calmer about the whole process.</p>

<p>I've been through websites of all the schools I like. Only problem is that I'm in love with cell biology, so I could see myself working with way too many PIs. :)</p>

<p>Coming from MIT you'll probably have a good shot at the top schools especially since you have a lot of research under your belt. I too was very nervous about the whole process last year because of the unpredictability of it. I asked my advisors what my chances were at my top choice schools and they never gave me a clear answer because one didn't exist. </p>

<p>Besides the obvious importance of research and GPA, all I know is that connections play a gigantic role. Having a good word for you put in by an advisor who knows the faculty at the other school is enough to make or break you.</p>

<p>That's terribly good to hear.</p>

<p>My advisor/research supervisor was a professor at my first choice school before he came to MIT. It's good to know that connection can be a bonus in my direction.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I guess I just feel sort of underinformed about everything because I'm one of very few in my major to go on to graduate school in biology. There are a million premeds, and a hefty number who want to do BME, but few people want to go on to straight biology research.

[/quote]
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<p>i totally feel ya with that one. once, in a physics for life science majors class, the teacher asked us how many of us were pre-health. all the hands in the class go up. he asks, instead, how many of us were NOT pre-health. i look around, and there's me and 2 other people. 1 wants to be a high school teacher, the other wanted to be a pilot (what were you doing w/a biol major dude?).
there's so many resources for pre-meds and the honors program totally caters entirely to premeds. its frustrating really, especially when i hear a premed saying, quote, "the second i get that letter of rec in my hands, i'm outta there [referring to a research lab]. i did my two years, i'm never going back in there". gee. thanks for equating my life career goal to prison.</p>

<p>sorry, a little offtopic. i read your sentence and had to vent =X</p>

<p>since grad school admission seems to be primarily based upon research experiences... how does that figure in when everyone has great research experiences and letter of recs? X_X;;</p>

<p>Well, I think some people's research experience is probably more significant than others. I have two friends at different schools back home whose "lab jobs" consist of autoclaving... </p>

<p>No problem for the off-topic -- it irritates me too. The number of times per week I have to answer the question "Oh, you're a biology major. So you're premed?" bugs me to no end. Personally, I love research and I think being a doctor would be my own private hell!!</p>

<p>
[quote]
The number of times per week I have to answer the question "Oh, you're a biology major. So you're premed?" bugs me to no end. Personally, I love research and I think being a doctor would be my own private hell!!

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<p>egad, I'm a chem major and I get that all the time, too... and I definitely agree with the "I love research and I think being a doctor would be my own private hell" sentiment :-P meh. all my pre-med friends just don't understand why...</p>

<p>One thing that makes me feel better is that I can get a B in biology classes without screwing myself over in the future. There are some premeds here who are very nonchalant about their grades... it's hard to watch them kid themselves that they're going to get into good medical programs. Med school is all about the 4.0. And there are so many premeds and not so many spots at good medical schools.</p>

<p>(This is evil, and I'm sort of sorry I'm going to say it) It will be interesting this year to watch the premeds in my classes who haven't kept their grades up crash and burn. I wonder what they will do instead?</p>

<p>Pharmacy, physician assistant, nursing, dentistry, optometry, surgical technologist, physical therapist, radiation therapist, and speech-language pathologist are some alternative health care fields.</p>

<p>True. I'm sure some of them will choose to be lab techs, too, since almost all of them will have done undergrad research.</p>

<p>The main problem I find with grad school admissions is that no one really knows if you'll get in or not! I agree with mollie, it's stressful because there are no good "average" guidelines. I asked my advisor about top graduate programs, and he said, "You have a good shot, but I'm not really sure."</p>

<p>I'm a rising senior at Cornell, and I'm going to apply to top biomedical engineering programs next year. Only five of them... I figure I wouldn't really want to go to school anywhere other than the five... :).</p>

<p>Neutral: I had the same problem. I couldn't really picture myself at many schools, so I applied to only 3 schools, all of them reaches. I got into my top choice but dinged at the other two. In retrospect, that was probably one of the stupidest things I could've done but hey at least I came out okay.</p>

<p>Hey, the outcome's all that matters, right? ;)</p>

<p>I agree though. There are four schools I really like, and I don't see myself anywhere else, but I feel really uncomfortable only applying to four schools, especially since they are all top programs. I mean, I know I'm good at what I do, but how good is that? Argh.</p>

<p>i just went through the grad school programs for a bioeng myself this past year and am entering a top program. my stats are 3.9+/800M/720V/5.5AW from berkeley bioeng. i have have done two research-based internships and some research at school but nothing very good (i.e. nothing published) and i got into everywhere i applied (hopkins, duke, mit, ucsd, etc) except for stanford, whose program is brand new (bastards!) when i went to talk to my profs about advice for grad school they told me that i would get in everywhere i applied and i did (except stupid stanford!) so i think profs OUGHT to be able to give you a good idea of your chances</p>