Hi,
My S scored a 1480 on SAT and 33 on ACT (34 if we superscore). We are thinking of not submitting the test scores for ED. The rest of his background is pretty strong. For those of you that didn’t submit, what was your experience?
Thanks
Why wouldn’t your son submit those test scores, especially if the rest of the application is strong? They are perfectly good test scores, maybe below average for a Chicago enrolled class, but well into the fat part of the bell curve. They aren’t really a negative for anyone’s application. They may not be a positive factor – lots of people with test scores like that are rejected, because lots and lots of people with test scores like that apply. So he has to rely on other things to make him stand out, but I gather he has the goods there.
Last year, Chicago accepted many more people who didn’t submit test scores than cynics like I had predicted. I think I remember about 15% of the class. I don’t think we know what percentage of applicants applied without test scores, so it’s hard to evaluate exactly what that means, except that they are legitimately interested in accepting strong applicants who do not submit scores.
But I have to believe that if your son applies without test scores, people will assume that his test scores are meaningfully worse than they are. Apart from an ideological opposition to being evaluated on the basis of test scores, there is no reason to withhold perfectly fine test scores like these.
^ What JHS is saying, and below is some more detail and food for thought:
Based on interviews with Dean Nondorf in Chronicle of Higher Ed. and Inside Higher Ed, we know the following:
- 10-15% of applicants for the class of '23 didn't submit test scores;
- The admitted and enrolled percentage who are Test-Optional is about the same (ie 10-15%);
- Those interested in arts and humanities were more likely to withhold scores than those interested in science or math;
- Those test-optional applicants who were admitted had submitted something else that strengthened their application far more than testing would have. So even "awesome scores" wouldn't have been necessary in those cases.
At the admitted events, the average SAT from those submitting test scores was revealed to be around 1520, which should be no surprise. Many applicants such as your S who had excellent scores - even top 1% of the curve - might well have determined that they weren’t “high enough.” If the only submissions are above last year’s distribution, then this year’s distribution will shift to the right. There is no theoretical end to that trend short of everyone submitting SAT/ACT scores that are in the nosebleed section of the curve. 1550/35? Fuggetaboutit!
That’s not the purpose of going Test-Optional.
While it’s important to stick to materials that enhance or support your application, you also don’t want the application to contain a gap or a negative implication. Last year, they explained that most would submit scores - suggesting, of course, that they were expecting scores from the majority of applicants. This year’s FAQ’s include the following tidbit: “For many applicants, an SAT or ACT score can reflect their academic preparedness in a broader context. Students who feel this describes them are invited to submit these standardized scores. However, some domestic applicants may feel that an SAT or ACT score does not fully reflect their academic preparedness or potential. If this is the case, students may select UChicago’s test optional method of application, and not supply SAT or ACT scores with their application.” Your son needs to figure out whether being in the top 1% of the score distribution is more like the first group or the second. If the latter, he needs to have something else in his arsenal that will wow the adcom so much that test scores will be unnecessary.
Benchmarks can be helpful, so if he needs such a tool he can eyeball the mid 50’th range for the enrolled Class of '22 (the last class requiring scores). This information is found on College Navigator.
Also, if he hasn’t already, he should look up the Empower Initiative - particularly the initial press releases - to get more insight concerning the context for Test Optional. There are also a few posts on CC from students accepted w/o scores this past spring, so you can read through prior threads to find them (or hopefully someone can easily retrieve and post). One or two of them are quite moving and seem to support the idea that Test Optional was introduced in order to give exceptional students who have been shut out the normal prep drill for whatever reason a chance at a top school.
Thank you for the insights. Of the kids from our school that were admitted last year, the average SAT score was 1500. The average UW GPA was 3.85. The average ACT is 34 (which if we superscore my son would be at). The issue is my son is applying to science but his highest science score was 30.
I’m thinking of submitting the SAT and not ACT.
Thanks
OP - a science SAT 2 or AP test is going to be taken more seriously as an indication of science talent than the science section of the ACT, so he should include those results in his application if he has them. Also, his ACT or SAT math score is probably more important than the science score.
ACT science is more about facility at reading charts and graphs than it is about science proficiency. The EBRW section of the SAT also covers evidence-based analyses, so it’s fine just to submit the SAT if he feels that test presents his strongest set of scores.
Finally, just as an fyi - he’s actually not going to be applying to any one major but to the College as a whole. If he loves science and has a strong track record in the subject, that’s great. And most science majors start their pre-reqs right away, along with other Core subjects. But he’s not required to declare till 2nd year.
Here is the profile of a student from last year who was accepted to UChicago without test scores:
The student above had a unique story, and it made sense why her test scores (SAT1220) were not indicative of her true potential. Unless your child has a good reason its probably better to submit. An ACT score of 33 is perfectly fine for Chicago.
JB, they’ll look at the ACT subscores, not just composite. That 30 could raise an eyebrow.
It depends on a lot of other factors. Yes, the strength of the entire rest of the app. And the volume and strengths of the competition from your home sub area.
A good applicant can knock the rest of the app out of the park. Scores sent or not. It means knowing more about the school and how you match what it wants than your own dreams.
Even solid high scores aren’t all it is.
@lookingforward - disagree on the 30 science, but as I mentioned above, the SAT EBRW covers the same set set of skills so if that percentile is higher, then SAT should be what’s submitted. My own kids scored at or below the UChicago 25th percentile on their SAT or ACT math. Their scores overall were excellent and the rest of their application was good enough to get them in.
Want to reiterate: If someone has a passion/aptitude/talent for some specific field of study or activity, then obviously it makes sense to submit that as well. Nothing about TO has changed that recommendation. A good number interested in science will submit competition results, research, SAT 2/AP scores, etc.
Yes. If the SAT M and CR show the relevant strengths, not to worry about the ACT S30. If the ACT is submitted along with the SAT, adcoms will look for the best.
Issue is when the SAT doesn’t or, in this case, for a sci major kid, that 1480 is an 800CR and 640M. The individual scores matter, not total.
^ "the SAT EBRW covers the same set set of skills so if that percentile is higher, then SAT should be what’s submitted. "
- Here's the detail: Command of Evidence sub-score, Problem Solving and Data Analysis sub-score, and the Analysis in Science cross-test score are all going to provide helpful additional information for anyone wishing to dig into your scores a bit more. This detail, including standardized score and percentile, is included on the score report and, presumably, goes to the admissions officer in charge of your file.
This isn’t about the EBRW skills alone. It includes the Math portion, for a stem kid. Ime, adcoms don’t see SAT subscores. I’ve never seen one dig further. Holistic, by itself, is challenge enough. Percentile isn’t downloaded, ime.
“Issue is when the SAT doesn’t or, in this case, for a sci major kid, that 1480 is an 800CR and 640M. The individual scores matter, not total.”
- Agreed that they look at sub-scores. 640 would be low. Had been referring to the science score specifically relative to the math score. Not an admissions officer, but would argue that the latter is actually more important.
“If the ACT is submitted along with the SAT, adcoms will look for the best.”
- Agree - They'll consider the best superscored test (either ACT or SAT) (not superscoring across tests). See the FAQ below. They do encourage applicants to submit everything; our kids have always been cautious about that - they don't sit more tests than they need to and they don't submit "everything" if it's not necessary for the application unless it's obvious that doing so helps them. They can figure out which is best just as easily as Admissions can :smile: That's just us.
"I’ve taken the SAT or ACT more than once. Should I send all my test scores?
We superscore test scores, meaning that only your best testing results—your highest sub-scores and the best result of the two testing options, if you’ve taken both the SAT and ACT— will be considered in the review of your application. Lower test scores submitted will not be used in the review of your application. If you have chosen to submit SAT or ACT test scores, we recommend you send us all of your test scores."
“This isn’t about the EBRW skills alone. It includes the Math portion, for a stem kid.”
- Math section is sent along as well. And Science Analysis is a cross-test score, should admissions be looking at that section of the report.
“Ime, adcoms don’t see SAT subscores. I’ve never seen one dig further. Holistic, by itself, is challenge enough.”
- The revised SAT has retooled the old "verbal" portion of the SAT. EBRW is, of course, Evidence Based Reading and Writing so includes analysis of charts and graphs and so forth. You may be totally correct that they don't need to look beyond the EBRW score itself - that might have all the information they need. The point here is that you aren't passing on the opportunity to demonstrate "science reasoning" by choosing to submit SAT over ACT.
“Percentile isn’t downloaded, ime.”
- That could be the case for the subs and cross test scores going to colleges. Those percentiles are definitely part of the score report that the student sees - you can click a "details" button in order to get that. In any case, the score report printout seems to show the possible range and the specific sub or cross standardized score. Should they choose to look, Admissions can figure out that a 38 or 37 Science Analysis score is higher than a 36 or 35.
@JBStillFlying - I’m slightly following along - but we are from an area where no one takes the SAT - just the ACT. kiddo is interested but has a low math score (30) compared to other ACT scores (36,36,33) Can you sort of explain what you are saying above but in context of the ACT test? or is just a different beast?
@bgbg4us - the ACT is a lot more straightforward in reporting than the SAT so I’d posit that your DC doesn’t have much to worry about there. And his/her scores look pretty strong overall. The mid 50’th is 30 - 35 for Math and 34 - 36 for English based on the Class of '22. Getting a 36 on any of the subs is super-hard and won’t be ignored. Under no circumstances should someone opt for TO just because of a 30 in Math.
I’d recommend that he/she focus on essays and getting excellent rec letters if a senior already. If a junior, do the above and continue to keep those grades up!
To answer the question about whether it’s a different beast, both ACT and SAT test academic preparedness so content will be similar even if the tests have different pacing or different ways of presenting scores. The tests are simply no longer that different from one another, and colleges don’t have a preference for one over the other.
@JBStillFlying in my case my kid scored 740 in each section (to get 1480). My hope is that balance should help.
My school counselor recommended not submitting if the score was below the 50% of admitted students last year which I believe 1480 is below by 50 or so points.
One other point, I’ve been reading about the 2019 SAT curve scoring seems to be tougher than 2019. Perhaps 30 to 50 points difference. I’m not sure if anyone else has heard if that is true.
Thanks
Based on the most recent (2019) information, 740 is 98th percentile (user) for EBRW and 95th for Math. Average 2019 scores did, indeed, fall over the prior year because more students are taking the test (including a greater number of less prepared students), but my best guess is that the tails didn’t budge much, or certainly didn’t decline the same amount. Anyway, the percentiles I am posting in this comment are the most up-to-date available. (College Board:SAT Understanding Scores 2019). 2020 won’t be out for awhile.
Would agree that the balance is good news. Being lopsided can hurt.
If your son’s guidance counselor is knowledgable about UChicago’s current TO policy and your school has a good track record with getting kids admitted, then his/her advice would probably be a lot more useful to your son than anonymous posters on CC 
He should be meeting with his counselor to review his options and figure out which set(s) of scores to send - or whether to send at all.
You are correct that this past spring, it was announced by Admissions that the average SAT was something like 1520. Keep in mind that 1) it probably reflects the impact of TO as those worried about low scores didn’t submit them; and 2) a whole lot of those admits submitting scores - in fact, probably around 50% of them - had something lower than 1520.
I’ve heard that 15% of acceptances last year were TO. If you take that with the statement from Nondorf that the 2023 class scored 15 points higher than the 2022 class, would mean that the average TO students would have scored 1420, if the overall 2023 SAT average was the same as 2022 (1505). Most likely however, we should assume if their point in going TO was to provide more access to kids that wouldn’t have normally gotten in, that average for the TO students would be lower and effectively lowering the average score from 1520 to sub 1500.
That’s only if we assume that UChicago is only quoting the scores of the applicants who submitted the scores with their application when they calculate. Are we sure that’s how they’re doing the calc? Many of the the other TO colleges don’t require test scores with the app, but then do require matriculating students to submit the scores for reporting purposes. USNWR also heavily penalizes colleges who don’t at least gather and report all scores later even if they don’t use them for admission purposes.
Does anyone know if the average score for the current class includes all scores of the matriculating class or just the ones submitted with the application?
^ @milee30 - at the time of the admitted student events in the Spring, Admissions was quoting a score - 1520 - that couldn’t have included test-optionals, even if that group had indeed been required to submit scores for matriculation. Also, the enrollment directions instructed only those who had submitted scores for admission consideration to send along official versions if they haven’t already (ie had self-reported on Common Ap, as my son did). Finally, I did check with an AO visiting our area to ensure that the numbers they were quoting last spring excluded any TO-Admit scores. So - unless Admissions is saying something different now, they meant it when they said you didn’t have to submit scores. That means all SAT/ACT score ranges and averages only include those who submitted.
@Wjp007 - I think I understand what you are doing in #17. Here’s a bit of historical data to help you. It makes sense to look at Class of '21 and '22 because those two classes reflect the new admissions and enrollment policies but were NOT admitted Test Optional.
My D was admitted to the Class of '21 and the mean SAT at that time was announced to be 1490 at the admitted events. Keep in mind that in 2017, people were submitting both old and new versions of the SAT so, in fairness, we really don’t know what was in that number. The Class of '21 profile page from the admissions website two years ago shows the following mid-50% ranges (not sure if they are including just enrolled or admitted):
ACT 32 - 35
SAT 1460 - 1550
For the Class of '22 I have no idea what they were quoting during the admitted events, except for some reference to “an SAT well north of 1500.” Others might have more specific information. The range is available currently on the Class of '22 Profile page on the Admissions website and is as follows:
ACT 33 - 35
SAT 1490 - 1560
And for Class of '23, we know they were saying the “average SAT” was something like 1520 and Nondorf did say that it had jumped 15 points over last year’s at the April Overnight Admitted event. But, gotta be honest - great guy, a bit vague on number detail. All we really know is that the number didn’t include the 10-15% of the class who applied TO. So if it “jumped” that could reflect both an ongoing upward trend and the TO policy.
I’d stick with the ranges they publish either on their admissions website or on College Navigator because those are official. Unfortunately, the Class of '23 Profile ranges won’t be available till later this fall, usually in December.